On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 09:47, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 2:31:18 PM UTC-6, stathisp wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 01:15, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:47:44 AM UTC-6, Quentin Anciaux >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le jeu. 19 sept. 2019 à 15:37, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >>>> écrit : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:02:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16 Sep 2019, at 17:18, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 9:00:46 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2019, at 05:22, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:08:23 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:26 PM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *> Carroll also believes that IF the universe is infinite, then >>>>>>>>> there must exist exact copies of universes and ourselves. This is >>>>>>>>> frequently claimed by the MWI true believers, but never, AFAICT, >>>>>>>>> proven, or >>>>>>>>> even plausibly argued. What's the argument for such a claim?* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course it's been proven! It's simple math, there are only a >>>>>>>> finite number of ways the atoms in your body, or even the entire >>>>>>>> OBSERVABLE >>>>>>>> universe, can be arranged so obviously if the entire universe is >>>>>>>> infinite >>>>>>>> then there is going to have to be copies, an infinite number of them in >>>>>>>> fact. Max Tegmark has even calculated how far you'd have to go to >>>>>>>> see such a thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I think you're missing (and Tegmark) is the possibility of >>>>>>> UNcountable universes. In such case, one could imagine new universes >>>>>>> coming >>>>>>> into existence forever and ever, without any repeats. Think of the >>>>>>> number >>>>>>> of points between 0 and 1 on the real line, each point associated with a >>>>>>> different universe. AG >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tegmark missed this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deutsch did not, and in his book “fabric of reality”, he gave rather >>>>>>> good argument in favour of Everett-type of multiverse having non >>>>>>> countable >>>>>>> universe. That makes sense with mechanism which give raise to a >>>>>>> continuum >>>>>>> (2^aleph_0) of histories, but the “equivalence class” brought by the >>>>>>> measure can have lower cardinality, or bigger. Open problem, to say the >>>>>>> least. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *What you're not addressing is that with uncountable universes -- >>>>>> which I haven't categorically denied could arise -- it's not obvious that >>>>>> any repeats necessarily occur. I don't believe any repeats occur. AG * >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I assume the mechanist hypothesis, which shows that the repeat exist, >>>>>> indeendly of the cardinality of the number of histories. At some point >>>>>> the >>>>>> difference are not more relevant, due to the Digital mechanist truncate, >>>>>> which makes the repeats even more numerous in the non countable case. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *I don't believe in repeats and I haven't seen any proofs that they >>>>> occur, just assertions from the usual suspects. AG * >>>>> >>>> >>>> Imagine a movie in 1280x720 pixels, then the same in 1920x1080 pixels >>>> then in 3840x2160 pixels... always the same but with more and more >>>> "precision", once you are at the correct substitution level (the level at >>>> which your consciousness is preserved) then any more precise simulation >>>> thant the ones at the correct level (which exists by assumption and there >>>> are an infinity of them) does not make any difference, but there are an >>>> infinity of them (at the correct level and below it). >>>> >>> >>> Let's suppose we correspond possible universes with the positive >>> integers, and also assume there's a property with uncountable outcomes, >>> such as a continuous mass in some range for any particle of your choice. No >>> matter how many countable universes you can imagine, there's no necessity >>> for any repeats of the mass of your particle; hence, no repeats of any >>> universe. AG >>> >> >> If finite precision of a continuous quantity is used, the outcomes are >> not uncountable. >> >>> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> > > I specifically used a COUNTABLE model as a possible counter example of the > necessary existence of copies. AG > Do you think the number of mental states a human can possibly have is finite, countably infinite or uncountably infinite? -- Stathis Papaioannou <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. 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