On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 6:56:25 PM UTC-6, stathisp wrote: > > > > On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 09:47, Alan Grayson <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 2:31:18 PM UTC-6, stathisp wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 01:15, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:47:44 AM UTC-6, Quentin Anciaux >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le jeu. 19 sept. 2019 à 15:37, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >>>>> écrit : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:02:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16 Sep 2019, at 17:18, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 9:00:46 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2019, at 05:22, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:08:23 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:26 PM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *> Carroll also believes that IF the universe is infinite, then >>>>>>>>>> there must exist exact copies of universes and ourselves. This is >>>>>>>>>> frequently claimed by the MWI true believers, but never, AFAICT, >>>>>>>>>> proven, or >>>>>>>>>> even plausibly argued. What's the argument for such a claim?* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course it's been proven! It's simple math, there are only a >>>>>>>>> finite number of ways the atoms in your body, or even the entire >>>>>>>>> OBSERVABLE >>>>>>>>> universe, can be arranged so obviously if the entire universe is >>>>>>>>> infinite >>>>>>>>> then there is going to have to be copies, an infinite number of them >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> fact. Max Tegmark has even calculated how far you'd have to go to >>>>>>>>> see such a thing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I think you're missing (and Tegmark) is the possibility of >>>>>>>> UNcountable universes. In such case, one could imagine new universes >>>>>>>> coming >>>>>>>> into existence forever and ever, without any repeats. Think of the >>>>>>>> number >>>>>>>> of points between 0 and 1 on the real line, each point associated with >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> different universe. AG >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tegmark missed this? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deutsch did not, and in his book “fabric of reality”, he gave >>>>>>>> rather good argument in favour of Everett-type of multiverse having >>>>>>>> non >>>>>>>> countable universe. That makes sense with mechanism which give raise >>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>> continuum (2^aleph_0) of histories, but the “equivalence class” >>>>>>>> brought by >>>>>>>> the measure can have lower cardinality, or bigger. Open problem, to >>>>>>>> say the >>>>>>>> least. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *What you're not addressing is that with uncountable universes -- >>>>>>> which I haven't categorically denied could arise -- it's not obvious >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> any repeats necessarily occur. I don't believe any repeats occur. AG * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I assume the mechanist hypothesis, which shows that the repeat >>>>>>> exist, indeendly of the cardinality of the number of histories. At some >>>>>>> point the difference are not more relevant, due to the Digital >>>>>>> mechanist >>>>>>> truncate, which makes the repeats even more numerous in the non >>>>>>> countable >>>>>>> case. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *I don't believe in repeats and I haven't seen any proofs that they >>>>>> occur, just assertions from the usual suspects. AG * >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Imagine a movie in 1280x720 pixels, then the same in 1920x1080 >>>>> pixels then in 3840x2160 pixels... always the same but with more and more >>>>> "precision", once you are at the correct substitution level (the level at >>>>> which your consciousness is preserved) then any more precise simulation >>>>> thant the ones at the correct level (which exists by assumption and there >>>>> are an infinity of them) does not make any difference, but there are an >>>>> infinity of them (at the correct level and below it). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Let's suppose we correspond possible universes with the positive >>>> integers, and also assume there's a property with uncountable outcomes, >>>> such as a continuous mass in some range for any particle of your choice. >>>> No >>>> matter how many countable universes you can imagine, there's no necessity >>>> for any repeats of the mass of your particle; hence, no repeats of any >>>> universe. AG >>>> >>> >>> If finite precision of a continuous quantity is used, the outcomes are >>> not uncountable. >>> >>>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> >> >> I specifically used a COUNTABLE model as a possible counter example of >> the necessary existence of copies. AG >> > > Do you think the number of mental states a human can possibly have is > finite, countably infinite or uncountably infinite? > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou >
What I have shown is that it's hypothetically possible to have countable universes wherein there are no repeats, no exact copies. AG > > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> > > <#CAH=2ypVLGJwvoq=f6XM0hYSNmH26-kQtw4t88idsKffPz=xmSA@mail.gmail.com_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/997f6fad-8042-45ec-b1a6-67a20d36a7a4%40googlegroups.com.
