On Thursday, September 19, 2019, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 6:56:25 PM UTC-6, stathisp wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 09:47, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 2:31:18 PM UTC-6, stathisp wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 01:15, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 7:47:44 AM UTC-6, Quentin Anciaux >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le jeu. 19 sept. 2019 à 15:37, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> a >>>>>> écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, September 19, 2019 at 5:02:11 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16 Sep 2019, at 17:18, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 9:00:46 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2019, at 05:22, Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:08:23 PM UTC-6, John Clark >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:26 PM Alan Grayson < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *> Carroll also believes that IF the universe is infinite, then >>>>>>>>>>> there must exist exact copies of universes and ourselves. This is >>>>>>>>>>> frequently claimed by the MWI true believers, but never, AFAICT, >>>>>>>>>>> proven, or >>>>>>>>>>> even plausibly argued. What's the argument for such a claim?* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course it's been proven! It's simple math, there are only a >>>>>>>>>> finite number of ways the atoms in your body, or even the entire >>>>>>>>>> OBSERVABLE >>>>>>>>>> universe, can be arranged so obviously if the entire universe is >>>>>>>>>> infinite >>>>>>>>>> then there is going to have to be copies, an infinite number of them >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> fact. Max Tegmark has even calculated how far you'd have to go >>>>>>>>>> to see such a thing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What I think you're missing (and Tegmark) is the possibility of >>>>>>>>> UNcountable universes. In such case, one could imagine new universes >>>>>>>>> coming >>>>>>>>> into existence forever and ever, without any repeats. Think of the >>>>>>>>> number >>>>>>>>> of points between 0 and 1 on the real line, each point associated >>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>> different universe. AG >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tegmark missed this? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Deutsch did not, and in his book “fabric of reality”, he gave >>>>>>>>> rather good argument in favour of Everett-type of multiverse having >>>>>>>>> non >>>>>>>>> countable universe. That makes sense with mechanism which give raise >>>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>>> continuum (2^aleph_0) of histories, but the “equivalence class” >>>>>>>>> brought by >>>>>>>>> the measure can have lower cardinality, or bigger. Open problem, to >>>>>>>>> say the >>>>>>>>> least. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *What you're not addressing is that with uncountable universes -- >>>>>>>> which I haven't categorically denied could arise -- it's not obvious >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> any repeats necessarily occur. I don't believe any repeats occur. AG * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I assume the mechanist hypothesis, which shows that the repeat >>>>>>>> exist, indeendly of the cardinality of the number of histories. At some >>>>>>>> point the difference are not more relevant, due to the Digital >>>>>>>> mechanist >>>>>>>> truncate, which makes the repeats even more numerous in the non >>>>>>>> countable >>>>>>>> case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *I don't believe in repeats and I haven't seen any proofs that they >>>>>>> occur, just assertions from the usual suspects. AG * >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Imagine a movie in 1280x720 pixels, then the same in 1920x1080 >>>>>> pixels then in 3840x2160 pixels... always the same but with more and more >>>>>> "precision", once you are at the correct substitution level (the level at >>>>>> which your consciousness is preserved) then any more precise simulation >>>>>> thant the ones at the correct level (which exists by assumption and there >>>>>> are an infinity of them) does not make any difference, but there are an >>>>>> infinity of them (at the correct level and below it). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let's suppose we correspond possible universes with the positive >>>>> integers, and also assume there's a property with uncountable outcomes, >>>>> such as a continuous mass in some range for any particle of your choice. >>>>> No >>>>> matter how many countable universes you can imagine, there's no necessity >>>>> for any repeats of the mass of your particle; hence, no repeats of any >>>>> universe. AG >>>>> >>>> >>>> If finite precision of a continuous quantity is used, the outcomes are >>>> not uncountable. >>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Stathis Papaioannou >>>> >>> >>> I specifically used a COUNTABLE model as a possible counter example of >>> the necessary existence of copies. AG >>> >> >> Do you think the number of mental states a human can possibly have is >> finite, countably infinite or uncountably infinite? >> >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> > > What I have shown is that it's hypothetically possible to have countable > universes wherein there are no repeats, no exact copies. AG > It might be imaginable but there being no duplicates of any finite spaces within an infinite space violates the Bekenstein bound and holographic principle. 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