On 10/26/2019 1:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 25 Oct 2019, at 23:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
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On 10/25/2019 4:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 24 Oct 2019, at 20:10, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
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On 10/24/2019 6:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Leibniz put it well in 1686, in his famous image of the mill:
consciousness, he said, "cannot be explained on mechanical
principles, ie by shapes and movements…. imagine that there is a
machine [eg a brain] whose structure makes it think, sense and
have perception. Then we can conceive it enlarged, so that we can
go inside it, as into a mill. Suppose that we do: then if we
inspect the interior we shall find there nothing but parts which
push one another, and never anything which could explain a
conscious experience."
Conclusion: consciousness can't be physical,
That’s a valid reasoning.
No it's not. Leibniz could find "producing flour" either, just
parts that push and pull.
I don’t understand. I think you miss here the 1p and 3p crucial
distinction.
Oops. I see I wrote "could" where I intended "couldn't".
But that's not your objection is it. The 1p would be the experience
of the mill in producing flour,
The production of flour by the mill is describable in pure 3p terms. I
see not introspective machine there a priori.
which one wouldn't find by inspecting the machine.
Indeed. But that would be different if the mill contains some chips,
and would be capable to describe itself, asserting things like
“Yesterday there was no wind, and I was unable to make as much flour
that I expected, I am sorry”.
But that's because a mill doesn't have experience in the relevant
sense. It may well have "mill experience", i.e. it's parts wear and
that constitutes a kind of memory and it responds to environments as
more or less power is available from it's water wheel. But it can't
have experience in the human (or even dog sense) because it is not
sufficiently complex nor programmed to interact with it's environment
based on internal modeling which includes modeling itself. If it had
those things, then with sufficient study Leibniz could find them and
know about the 1p experience of the mill.
Not know. But he can bet,
Scientists only ever know things in that sense; it goes without saying.
It is only metaphysicians who pretend to "know" things in some absolute
sense.
Brent
but then he bets on Mechanism, and eventually he will understand that
physics has to be founded on machine’s
psychology/theology/computer-science/arithmetic. He was going in that
direction, and was not so far of the discovery of the universal machine.
Bruno
Brent
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