On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 11:54:20 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 11:43:48 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote: > >> >> >> On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 5:34:17 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 4:48:51 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>>> >>>> On Friday, July 17, 2020 at 5:01:41 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 7:50:07 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 5:08:57 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gravitons do not escape from a BH, any more than can light. However, >>>>>>> from the perspective of an outside observer all matter than went into a >>>>>>> BH >>>>>>> is on the surface above the event horizon, called the stretched >>>>>>> horizon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LC >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Gravitons might not exist (and hence quantum gravity can't exist) >>>>>> But whatever the case, how can BH's interact gravitationally with >>>>>> objects >>>>>> beyond its event horizon? You say this doesn't happen. I don't >>>>>> understand >>>>>> your argument. AG >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> That you are saying this illustrates you do not understand general >>>> relativity. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I may have identified the thousand pound gorilla in the room; the >>>>> hypothetical force carrying particle of the quantum gravitating field, >>>>> the >>>>> graviton, which for BH's doesn't exert any force! AG >>>>> >>>> >>>> I have no idea why you are saying this. Gravitation is not a force in >>>> the usual sense and so the graviton does not produce a force in the >>>> standard meaning. For the weak field limit the nonlinear terms are >>>> negligable and a gravitational wave is linear. This is easily quantized. >>>> In >>>> fact it is similar to the Hanbury-Brown and Twiss theory of the diphoton. >>>> It is when the field becomes strong that general relativity becomes >>>> nonlinear and runs into trouble with quantum mechanics. >>>> >>>> LC >>>> >>> >>> I assumed a quantum field theory of gravity must have a particle >>> associated with it, and that this particle is called the graviton. Gravity >>> is a fictitious force. So what would the role of the graviton be, if not to >>> produce some force? If you detect gravitational waves, don't they consist >>> of gravitons if a quantum theory of gravity exists, analogous to photons in >>> EM waves? AG >>> >> >> Before you can present yourself as deeply knowledgeable of GR, you should >> be able to give a coherent account how presumably *isolated* bodies such >> as BH's, can gravitationally interact with what's exterior to them. If >> gravitons can't do that in the context of a quantum theory of gravity, what >> can? AG >> > > It is the delay or tortoise coordinate basis for an external observer. >
This is a tough subject to wrap one's head around. Wiki has a decent article on it. There's an objective gravitational effect of a BH beyond its event horizon. Are you claiming that the effect is only supported by theory by a particular choice of coordinate system for an external observer? AG > > LC > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/540a32ce-6672-42ee-9c60-b2930e4905eao%40googlegroups.com.
