Thanks for that! You seem to know the subject well. What exactly does it *mean* to say SR can be used for non-inertial frames? Or, do you deny the claim that SR *can* be used for non-inertial frames? AG
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 8:25:41 AM UTC-7 jessem wrote: > The Lorentz transformation is specifically meant for transforming between > inertial frames, it can't generally be used to transform between > non-inertial frames (you could construct a pair of non-inertial coordinate > systems that were related by the Lorentz transformation if you wanted, just > like you could construct a pair of non-inertial frames related by the > Galilei transformation or whatever transformation you wish--as I said to > John Clark, there's no 'canonical' way to construct a non-inertial > coordinate system in relativity, you can define one basically however you > like). However, all the physical consequences of the postulate that the > laws of physics are Lorentz-invariant can be specified in terms of > different equations that would apply in a non-inertial frame, and these > equations can be derived by using whatever coordinate transformation was > used to define the non-inertial frame's coordinates relative to an inertial > coordinate system. > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 8:07 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Jessem: I was wondering if the LT can be used to determine how the laws >> of physics change between two accelerating frames, accelerating at the same >> rate but moving in opposite directions. AG >> >> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 7:58:31 AM UTC-7 jessem wrote: >> >>> That doesn't address my specific question about whether you define the >>> "predictions of SR" in terms of the same specific equations that work in >>> inertial frames, like the time dilation equation delta-tau = delta-t * >>> sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2), or whether you would define the predictions of SR in >>> terms of new equations for the non-inertial frame (which could be obtained >>> by applying a coordinate transformation that maps the coordinates of an >>> inertial frame to those of the non-inertial frame). >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 5:18 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> And when I used the word "true", I just meant that no observations >>>> exist which contradict the predictions of SR. AG >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:09:25 PM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I just mean, if both frames are accelerating at the same rate, will >>>>> the v in the LT, be the instantaneous relative velocity? AG >>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 11:05:42 PM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Specifically, will the time dilation of a clock in an accelerating >>>>>> frame, be the same as a clock as measured for a clock in a the >>>>>> observer's >>>>>> accelerating frame, where v in the LT is the instantaneous velocity of >>>>>> the >>>>>> clock in the observer's frame at every time t in the observer's frame? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 10:54:06 PM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> By "valid", I mean "true". IOW, is SR limited to non-accelerating >>>>>>> frames? If the frames are accelerating, will the LT still hold for >>>>>>> relating >>>>>>> the laws of physics between those frames? AG >>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-7 jessem wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It depends what you mean by "valid". Certainly all the physical >>>>>>>> laws of relativity such as time dilation can be expressed in a >>>>>>>> non-inertial >>>>>>>> coordinate system, like Rindler coordinates. But the equations >>>>>>>> expressing >>>>>>>> these laws will not be the same in non-inertial coordinate systems, >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> example you can no longer assume that a clock moving at constant >>>>>>>> coordinate >>>>>>>> velocity for a coordinate time interval of delta-t will elapse a >>>>>>>> proper >>>>>>>> time of delta-tau = delta-t * sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 9:50 PM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wormholes have nothing to do with my question. Please answer the >>>>>>>>> question defining this thread. TY. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 1:00:50 PM UTC-7 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A stable wormhole requires threading by negative energy density. >>>>>>>>>> Since no such negative energy field is know and it's existence would >>>>>>>>>> imperil the stability of matter, its existence seems highly unlikely. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/15/2022 11:17 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Me: Forget acronyms, or even Einstein's gravitic Reference Frame >>>>>>>>>> dragging (His movie reel analogy), Instead ask yourselves are these >>>>>>>>>> physicists correct in proposing that some black holes are wormholes? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Objects We Thought Were Black Holes May Actually Be Wormholes, >>>>>>>>>> Scientists Say (futurism.com) >>>>>>>>>> <https://futurism.com/objects-black-holes-wormholes> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For this science fiction boy, I say interesting and maybe, >>>>>>>>>> hopeful? Let the hard science Bohr flavor of quantum mechanics and >>>>>>>>>> relativity yield for in objection, how this is fictional, >>>>>>>>>> improbable, and >>>>>>>>>> crapola? For reference frames, I know Einstein locked this in with >>>>>>>>>> time, >>>>>>>>>> which he discussed with Michele Besso (remember the letter to Beso's >>>>>>>>>> family?) but otherwise, how valuable to astronomers and physicists >>>>>>>>>> is ref >>>>>>>>>> frame dragging and all that? Does it predict do you think? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The validity of a science is its ability to predict-Vanevar Bush. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> To: Everything List <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, Nov 15, 2022 1:30 pm >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Is Special Relativity valid for accelerating frames >>>>>>>>>> of reference? TY. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RA. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 6:19:02 AM UTC-7 >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 6:38 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *> IHA = ?* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I Hate Acronyms. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis> >>>>>>>>>> 8gfk >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a67cbbac-69e0-40a9-8ee2-8e0caeb344d5n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a67cbbac-69e0-40a9-8ee2-8e0caeb344d5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/2142008288.338975.1668539879975%40mail.yahoo.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/2142008288.338975.1668539879975%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/527ac7d6-ada8-422f-b93f-df5b974da65fn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/527ac7d6-ada8-422f-b93f-df5b974da65fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/e1136ae4-4886-4cdb-aaa3-ca1e47a1b08fn%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/e1136ae4-4886-4cdb-aaa3-ca1e47a1b08fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d32ead9c-ef89-4ac3-9518-27b53350c7fdn%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d32ead9c-ef89-4ac3-9518-27b53350c7fdn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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