On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:04 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote:

> *> As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody
> would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of their
> star (i.e. becoming Type2).*

I can't think of any reason neighbors would object to building such a thing
either, but the Second Law Of Thermodynamics demands that at stellar
distances such an object would produce a very very small but very very
bright infrared signal with no visible ultraviolet or x-ray emissions at
all. Such an object should be easily observable by an earthbound infrared
telescope or a space based one such as the Web, but nothing even close to
that has ever been found. And that makes me conclude that they probably
don't exist in the observable universe.

* > I can hardly think about any use for such a project*

I sure can!  When Drexler style Nanotechnology becomes commonplace (which
will happen the day after the first Nanofabricator is built) any task will
be either physically impossible or ridiculously easy, nothing will be too
difficult or expensive to do. The only thing that will still be valuable
will be novelty, and brains are more interesting than dead matter because
brains can perform computations. But it takes energy to make a calculation,
a star provides a lot of energy, however in every star we've ever looked at
all that energy is never put to work, instead it's just radiated uselessly
into infinite space. I don't believe any intelligence would put up with
such uselessness for long. So they would have every incentive to construct
a Dyson Sphere, or at least they would if ET actually existed.

> >
> * I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the idea of
> sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and possibly hints of
> some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy and their star, and if
> they want to cook themselves hard then why not.*

Huh? The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson
Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson
Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to
work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have
been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount
of energy. But as I have said no such object has ever been observed and if
they existed they should have been.

> * > But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project,
> mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos,*

Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?!  As I said
the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would still value would
be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that evolved independently
would be novel indeed. I think both would be delighted to find each other
and communicate, the delay time would be large but so would be the
bandwidth.  But what could a Type2 civilization do to increase novelty if
it was already using the energy output of its star to the limit of its
capacity and could detect no other Type2 such as itself? It could construct
just one single von Neumann probe and send it to the nearest star and then,
even if we make the ridiculously conservative assumption that it couldn't
make an interstellar probe move any faster then we can do right now with
our primitive chemical rockets, there would still be such a construction
machine on every stellar system in the galaxy in less than 50 million
years, a blink of the eye cosmically speaking. And very soon after that
you'd have a Type3 civilization.  If a Type3 civilization existed anywhere
in the observable universe we would see it, but we see nothing of the sort.

* >  As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be allowed.*

This is how I think it could occur. I don't think a Type2 would contain
trillions or even billions of minds but probably less than a million,
that's because enormous amounts of information can be transferred very
quickly electronically, so provided that  2 brains are not so far apart
that the delay caused by the finite speed of light becomes significant
there would not be 2 brains but only one.  If every thought you had I had
and every thought I had you had it would it  be meaningless to talk about 2
separate people. But how distant can the two brains be before the time
delay becomes intolerable?

The fastest signals in the human brain move at a couple of hundred meters a
second, many are far slower, light moves at 300 million meters per second.
So if you insist that the 2 most distant parts of a brain communicate as
fast as they do in a human brain (a rather arbitrary constraint)  then
parts in the brain of an AI could be at least one million times as distant
as they are in a human, about 480 miles across. The volume increases by the
cube of the distance so such a brain would physically be a million trillion
(10^18) times larger than a human brain. Even if 99.9% of that space were
used just to deliver power and get rid of waste heat you'd still have a
thousand trillion times as much volume for logic and memory components as
humans have room for inside their heads. And the components would be
considerably smaller than the human ones too.

> * > So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid
> of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest circle,
> because this is the lesson from history).*

Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will be of
little value, that's why it's called a Singularity.
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis


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