On Oct 1, 2007, at 2:38 PM, authfriend wrote:
He does mention the word, Judy, in reference to the trips
he felt that MS was attempting to lay on the women who chose
abortion.
No, in reference to what Barry suggests the women he
consoled were feeling--not using the word explicitly,
but obviously implying it. Did you not read the last
two paragraphs of my post? I left them in below.
Yes I did, and your thoughts go around in so many circles it becomes
nearly impossible to follow, IMO.
And then there could be physical aftermaths as well.
Maybe "painful" is too loaded a word, but all sorts
of things could make it a not-so-wonderful experience.
One thing is near-certain in most cases, and that it
is not a walk in the park, as you would like everyone to
believe so you can once again dump on someone.
Nowhere did I suggest it was a "walk in the park" or
a "wonderful" experience. You made those up.
What I said in my earlier post (did you read it?) was
that there was no basis for its being a *traumatic*
experience unless the woman had really wanted to bring
the fetus to term.
If the father is "AWOL" and that's emotionally
distressing to the woman, that's a problem with the
relationship, not with the abortion.
Never said it was a problem with the abortion itself, but it most
definitely can be a problem with the whole experience, of which the
abortion is only a part, especially if she has no $$ to pay for it.
But that doesn't seem to have been what Barry was
talking about in these cases.
My point is that in most cases, what makes having
an abortion emotionally difficult is the guilt-and-
shame factor, which has, IMHO, *no* rational basis
whatsoever. It's something that's been imposed and
encouraged by the antichoice folks.
I agree. But it's also nice, I would think, to have some
support from *someone* at the time.
Sure, just as it would be nice to have some support
from someone if you were having, say, a tooth pulled.
Exactly.
And whatever distressing factors play into the
whole thing couldn't be terribly powerful, seeing as how
over a million women a year in this country alone somehow
manage to counteract them and have abortions.
And quite possibly suffer from debilitating guilt
afterward as well as beforehand.
All million of them, every year? I haven't taken any kind of poll, but
it seems highly unlikely. And I have a feeling the Religious Wrong
finds it unlikely as well, which probably explains why they don't take
their own polls. If sufficient numbers of women were really feeling
that way, those idiots would be shrieking it from the rooftops. Most,
I would guess, feel relief.
So whatever the rightwingnuts have been trying to
impose has not been very successful, hence their
constant threats to try and dismantle it.
How many more women would have them if there were
no shame and guilt attached?
Probably not many more, I would say. What keeps most women from having
them at this point, if anything, is lack of availability and/or cost.
A few might also have religious convictions, which I suppose could be
dressed-up shame and guilt.
(I'm in favor of fewer rather than more abortions,
just for the record, but only by reducing the number
of unwanted pregnancies.)
To counter the "wanton disregard for the fetus" canard
by invoking the emotional distress caused by abortion,
as Barry did, is to cite *one* spurious reason for
opposing abortion against the *other* spurious
reason for opposing abortion, putting the woman right
between a rock and a hard place and handing the
argument to the antichoicers.
YEah, if that's what he was doing. But it wasn't, IMO.
Not consciously; he just didn't think it through.
He was more interested in beating up on mainstream
and exalting his own "compassion," and in the process
exploiting the women's victimization.
Yeah, you obviously think Barry is going into some kind of "savior"
mode with all this, when all I see is that he's relating his own
experience of what it was like for those women at that time. My guess
is, if it were anyone but Barry, you'd see it that way too.
Here's where the "guilt" comes in with regard to
Barry's consolees:
because it's *inherently* difficult, it's because
the antichoicers have *made* it difficult. Barry
tacitly acknowledges this in the case of the women
he consoled by claiming that one of the ways he
could be helpful was not to "judge" the women.
What is there to judge other than "wanton disregard
for the fetus," on the one hand, or guilt on the
other? Barry insists it wasn't the first, so it
could only have been the second.
Mind-reading isn't my thing.
Sal
