You might want to read the book, Murder in Amsterdam by Baruma, a Dutch journalist who has spent about 15years living in the US. AFter the murder of Theo Van Gogh, Baruma decided to return to Amsterdam and see just what was going on. The influx of Muslims and all the problems you talk about in Finland are there, too. And in a country that prides itself on acceptance and tolerance. A fascinating book that changed how I thought about some of these issues.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Irmeli Mattsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "do.rflex" <do.rflex@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Irmeli Mattsson" > > <Irmeli.Mattsson@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Hagen J. Holtz" > > > <hagen.j.holtz@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Irmeli said: > > > > > > > > Practically every time they (the nuslims) publicly say > > > > something, they make themselves just ridiculous, and show that their > > > > capacity to formal operational thinking, or abstract conceptual > > > > thinking, is poor. They combine categories in a wrong way all the > > > > time. And this is not about belief systems. It is about where > they are > > > > in their cognitive development. And I consider their > beliefsystems to > > > > be the cause of their backwardness. > > > > > > > > Irmeli, what you report from Finland fits perfectly into the > > > picture, which we also have on German grounds with this "ethnic" group > > > from time to time. So your description illustrates it very > > > felicitously. But for all that I personally consider their > > > beliefsystem not as being the main cause of their backwardness, but > > > rather their lack of willingness to go one step ahead. And I think, > > > that western influence has been contributing to this disclaiming > > > attitude a lot, because the interests of the west had predominantly > > > been of economic and earlier even of generally subdueing nature, > > > living the reckless fruitless hubris of feeling superior. And now we > > > harvest a little the fruits of our sowing. > > > > > > > > Hagen > > > > > > > > > > I have just read the book `Infidel' by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. On this basis > > > I would claim that many of the Muslim beliefs are really weird and > > > scary. Reading the book convinced me that these beliefs truly are > > > behind their severe problems. I also saw that it is not easy to > > > interpret those commandments in a more `advanced' more humane way, > > > because they actually are very literal concrete practical > > > instructions. And one fundamental instruction is not to question these > > > instructions. It is about submitting yourself without questioning. > > > > > > Irmeli > > > > > > All human beings are the same. They all have the same emotions. All > > laugh when happy and weep when sad. There are no broad civilizations > > that produce radically different behavior in human beings. > > > > All are capable of violence. (Christians killed tens of millions in > > the course of the 20th century, far, far more than did Muslims). Few > > commit much violence except in war. > > > > You can walk around any place in Cairo at 1 am perfectly safely, but > > cannot do that everywhere safely in many major US cities, including > > the nation's capital, Washington, DC. > > > > Even the idea of Islam as a cultural world or civilization opposed to > > the Christian West is a false construct. Eastern Mediterranean honor > > cultures (Greece, Bulgaria, Lebanon, Syria) have more in common with > > each other across the Christian-Muslim divide than either has in > > common with Britain or the US. > > > > And, Muslim states don't make their alliances by religion. > > > > Egypt was allied with the Soviet Union in the 1960s, then switched to > > the US in the 1970s and until the present. > > > > Four of the five non-NATO allies of the US are Muslim countries. > > Turkey is even a full NATO ally and fought along side the US in the > > Korean War. [...] > > > > The Bush administration policy is to continually insinuate that the > > Muslim world is the new Soviet Union and full of sinister forces that > > require the US to go to war against them. But at the same time, > > America has warm relations with Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Senegal, > > Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Qatar, the UAE, Bahrain, > > Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, Kyrgyzstan, > > Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, etc., etc. When > > Saudi Arabia's then crown prince (now king) Abdullah came to the US, > > Bush brought him to the Crawford ranch, held hands with him and kissed > > him on each cheek. > > > > This two-faced policy and self-contradictory rhetoric has contributed > > to growing hatred and bigotry toward Muslims in the US, which is no > > less worrisome than the hatred Jews faced in Europe in the 1920s. It > > is dangerous because of what it can become. > > > > Read the whole thing: > > > http://www.juancole.com/2006/03/bigotry-toward-muslims-and-anti-arab.html > > > > > > ========= > > > > Most Muslims 'desire democracy' > > > > BBC News, February 27, 2008 > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/americas/7267100.stm > > > > > > The largest survey to date of Muslims worldwide suggests the vast > > majority want Western democracy and freedoms, but do not want them to > > be imposed. > > > > The poll by Gallup of more than 50,000 Muslims in 35 nations found > > most wanted the West to instead focus on changing its negative view of > > Muslims and Islam. > > > > The huge survey began following the 11 September 2001 attacks in the US. > > > > The overwhelming majority of those asked condemned them and subsequent > > attacks, citing religious reasons. > > > > The poll, which claims to represent the views of 90% the world's 1.3 > > billion Muslims, is to be published next month as part of a book > > entitled Who Speaks For Islam? What A Billion Muslims Really Think. > > > > New policies > > > > According to the book, the survey of the world's Muslim community was > > commissioned by Gallup's chairman, Jim Clifton, shortly after US > > President George W Bush asked in a 2001 speech: "Why do they hate us?" > > > > Mr Bush wondered why radical Islamist militant groups such as al-Qaeda > > hated democratically elected governments, as well as "our freedom of > > religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assembly and > > disagree with each other". > > > > But one of the book's authors, John Esposito, says the survey's > > results suggest Muslims - ironically even many of the 7% classing > > themselves as "radical" - in fact admire the West for its democracy > > and freedoms. However, they do not want such things imposed on them. > > > > "Muslims want self-determination, but not an American-imposed and > > defined democracy. They don't want secularism or theocracy," said the > > professor of Islamic Studies at Georgetown University in Washington. > > > > "What the majority wants is democracy with religious values." > > > > Mr Esposito said "radical" Muslims believed in democracy even more > > than many of the moderate Muslims questioned. > > > > "The radicals are better educated, have better jobs, and are more > > hopeful with regard to the future than mainstream Muslims," he added. > > > > "But they're more cynical about whether they'll ever get it." > > > > The research also indicates most Muslims want guarantees of freedom of > > speech and would not want religious leaders to have a role in drafting > > constitutions. > > > > Those polled also said the most important thing the West could do to > > improve relations with Muslim societies was to change its negative > > views towards Muslims and respect Islam. > > > > The authors said the conflict between Islam and the West was not > > inevitable, but needed decision makers to listen and consider new > > policies if the extremists on both sides were not to gain ground. > > > > > I live in Finland, and we have started to receive Muslim refugees only > in the 90's, starting with the Somalis, then the Kurds etc. Initially > we welcomed them with open heart. > > But our attitudes are starting to change. A lot of problems are > appearing. The Muslims have often very difficult to adjust to modern > western society. They tend to isolate themselves. Here they become > more fundamentalist in their religion than they were in their home > country. They have difficult to keep a job. Often because they have > not the human relation skills that are required here. Here you have to > be able to co-operate, discuss things etc. Women don't learn Finnish, > because they are so isolated. The children don't do well in school in > spite of extensive support to their education. > > In the city were I live we have received exceptionally many refugees, > maybe it 2-3 % of the population here. According to the statistics, > they do over 30% of the rapes and other crimes here. Battered Muslim > women fill our women's shelters. They have a lot of severe mental > problems. Hence take a lot of our mental care capacities etc. Their > has been many threats of honor killings of young Muslim women, who > want to choose themelves their husbands etc. > > The social support here is good, so they can live in good apartments. > They don't need to suffer from material lack. Still I can sometimes > sense hostility towards us. > > We have here also refugees from other traditions and cultures. E.g. > quite many Vietnamese. They are doing fine. Can keep their jobs. 90% > of them have a job, over 90% of the Somalis don't. > > Something is not quite alright with those Muslims as a whole, even if > among them are also those who are doing fine. > > Irmeli >
