--- In [email protected], Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> --- akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I am jut a bit intrigued by the "expectations"
> > theme. See other posts
> > on this. (this one summarizes some of the issues.)
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/64595
> > You appear, in my view, to be smearing judgemental
> > critics and expectations with personal preferences. To say,
> > "that decor is not for me" -- and then dropping it, is a statment
of personal taste. To go further and say "thats tacky" is judgemental.
> >
> > And there is a semantical razor's edge here. By
> > "judgemental views" I mean making assessemnt of others or things
that are not required for
> > ones own decisions and actions. Its not decrying
> > using "judgement" aka IMO intellectual discrimination, which when
applied to things one must make a decision about, and actions one is
> > considering, is a good thing.
> >
> > A theme I am exploring is "are judgemental views
> > rooted in
> > expectations"? It seem to be a correct, and useful,
> > hypothesis, but I
> > am still looking for exceptions to disprove the it.
>
> I don't think that all judgements are rooted in
> expectations. Some obviously are, but many are not.
> For instance I eat something that doesn't taste good
> and I say, "Yuk, that tastes awful" and I spit it out.
And of course, I just made a large distinction, above, between
"judgments" and "judgmental actions" --- and posited that expectations
are linked to the latter, not the former. Its funny, becasue the
springboard for your example is on the former, on jusgements,
something I did NOT link to expectations. Of course you are free to
develop your own models, but your example has nothing to do with
countering my point. You appear to be arguing against my point by
suggesting I said the opposite of what I said. Not a problem, but its
kind of hard to carry on much of a convo that way. Either you didnt
read what I wrote, or my words were incredibly obtuse.
Carrrying on with your example, I would say your judgement that
something doesn't taste good, and your decicion not to eat more, is
what I consider appropriate use of judgement. You found your personal
preferences were not consistent with the meal and you made a decision
based on that. Bravo. Thats a good thing.
What I am suggesting is that if you went on to say something like,
"and poeple who like this are stupid, unevolved and ugly!" then I
would hold that you are holding a "judgemental view" -- per my
definition above, and this is not useful, and is part of the monkey
mind chatter of irrelevance, frustration and cyclic behavior. This
latter" judgemental view" had nothing to do with personal decision and
action. Its just a vehicle for more crap to circulate through the
mind, distort ones vision and make one a bit of an ass.
> You seem to be saying that
> expectations are bad or wrong.
Again you appear not to have read my posts on this and are jumping in
mid stream. Not a problem, but it makes your points quite off target.
Unc and Irmeli were arguing that expectations were bad. I went through
a number of counter arguments and examples that expectations are the
foundation of science and technolgy -- in the realm of things, we do
an action and expect a repeateable result. When we turn the light on,
we expect it to go on. And that is fine, no foul.
I did find some common ground to agree with them, that, IMO, not
having expecations about outcomes over which we have little control is
a good thing. In other words, expectation over things which we have
little control is indeed bad. Examples: don't expect a person to be or
act a certain way, don't expect the day to unfold in a certain way.
> I really don't see a problem with
> saying it was tacky. I just didn't like it. If someone
> else liked it I certainly wasn't going to argue with
> them! I'd say, "Oh" and leave it at that.
I was using the "tacky" statement just a springboard for discussion.
It in itself was not any great sin. But I do hold there is a useful
and instructive distinction between saying you don't care for
something (a judgement pertainng to your own decisions and actions --
which is fine), and saying something is "tacky" -- which by its
implication of who designed or lived in the house -- begins to go down
the slippery slope of making a running commentary and value judgements
about others, their tastes, natures, states, etc. Monkey Mind Chute.
> > So back to the examples, to say "that decor is not
> > for me" is an
> > expression of personal taste, and may be quite
> > relevant if one is
> > considering buying or renting the property. To make
> > a value judgement,
> > that is to be judgemental about it, particularly if
> > its a disparaging
> > one, particularly if it makes disparaging
> > implications about others,
> No disparging implication of others intended. I'd
> never say such a thing directly to the Dilbecks. Why
> would I?
I don't know why you would say this to the Dillbecks since its the
Dimicks house. :) But that would be tacky, indeed!
However, going down the slippery slope some degrees beyond "tacky",
your comment might suggest its ok to rip people behind their back, as
long as you don't do it directly. I don't think you mean that, but I
do observe some make jokes (of a cutting nature but funny) when
someone is not there, and would never do so to their face.
> > then its unecessary, it serves no decision-based or
> > action-based
> > service. It only serves to distinguish oneself from
> > others, to subtly
> > disparage others, a habit of the ego to pump up its
> > own superiority.
>
> Way, way off base here.
I was making a generized observation, not commenting on you. No need
to internalize everything I say.
> Your logic is leading in
> directions that are false. To say that something is
> tacky is not then saying by implication that I am
> superior in my taste.
Well, again "tacky" was a starting example for discussion. if you
said, per above example, "and people who like this kind of food are
stupid, unevolved and ugly!", I would hold that type of comment could
well be a defense or coping mechanism trying to establish distinction
and superiority.
> I really don't have a lot
> invested in the decor of the Dilbecks house!
Much less the Dimick's house I suppose.
> > But where is the line between personal tastes (a
> > fine thing) and
> > judgemental views (an unecessary and harmful thing)?
> > As touched on
> > above, I think it is where the judgement is relavant
> > to, necessary
> > for, a personal decisions about an action. If its
> > not, its a
> > superfilous and extranious judgement -- and its this
> > type of constant
> > internally (and sometimes externally) "commenting
> > on" judging people
> > and things, that cloud the mind.
>
> Not neccessarily.
Can you provide examples? I think the judgemental views (per my
definition above, not to be confused with "judgements pertaining to
ones own actions", do tend to create a chatter in the mind that is
clouding. And if one is prone to have such chatter, try just
suspending judgemental views (per above definition) for a week and see
if the mind is clearer, less cluttered.
> > A parting example. You might comment internally (why
> > the need to
> > express this externally is another issue): "MMY's
> > behavior as a guru
> > is not useful to me. I won't follow what he says
> > (anymore)." Thats all
> > good and fine, it relates to a personal decision and
> > action.
> >
> > To go further, even as a joke, and say "he is off
> > his rocker etc", is
> > judgemental, and serves no purpose in terms of
> > personal decisions and
> > actions. Its could be a venting or coping sort of
> > mechanism, and a
> > means to dissassociate yourself from the craziness,
> > in a smug sort of
> > way.
>
> Smug? I don't think so. I see MMY as having lost his
> marbles. I'm making a joke out a very serious issue.
> MMY has gone nuts.
Ok. Do you think something should be done about it? Is he a danger to
himself or society?
> I find it quite incredible and
> interesting. When ever I say this I usually get about
> 3 to 5 hate mails on the side insulting me and telling
> me I've lost my marbles for saying such a thing.
> Me and MMY are cool. He'd just laugh if I called him nuts
> to his face. Actually, I wouldn't say that, I'd say
> "Maharishi, so much of what you're doing is so crazy,
> isn't it?" I'd hang tight as he blew me off until we'd
> get to the good stuff.
Ok, do you really think he is really crazy as in "clinically insane"
(my words) or not. You appear to think so above "a very serious issue
.. MMY has gone nuts." Now are cuddling up to and joking with a person
you think is insane. Which is it?
> So maybe he's not so crazy
> after all.
Ok. So first, you need to make up your mind as to whether he is
literally crazy or not if you want to offer a valid critique of the
point made. The point being, if you have a personal judgement
pertaining to action ("MMY is not for me, I will follow another
teacher") or a professional judgement pertaining to action ("MMY is
clinicaly crazy and I should alert Dutch authorities of such") then
you are making valid and useful judgements.
On the other hand, if you are simply making jokes, trying for a laugh,
and making judgemental views (per above def) about MMY, that don't
pertain to your own personal action, then I suggest they are not
useful. And as you have found, provoke or hurt others -- in useful
ways (or it has not been demonstrated tha they are useful.
> > And it may indeed have to do with your expectations
> > of what a realized
> > person should do and how guru should act when
> > interacting with his
> > students. For you, perhaps, its inappropriate.
> > Perhaps you bring up
> > counter arguments "well, not all gurus need to act
> > in this way, e.g.,
> > SSRS, Amma, etc." -- which might imply an
> > expectation of how gurus
> > should act. Perhaps the purpose of MMY's actions is
> > to break apart
> > such expectations. And thus he is helping you and
> > many others to break
> > boundaries.
>
>
> Exactly. Even SSRS surprises me with his very casual,
> open behavior at times. Definately rooting out and
> expectation there.
Yes, exaclty, So why make disparaging jokes about MMY if he is sanely
and systematically going about breaking yours and others boundaries.
Or are you simply hedging your bets?
Actually, I am open to both possibilities: he is senile and his claims
are not well founded, or that he is moving the armies this way then
that way as an exercise to break boundaries and culture wholeness.
Regardless, my personal judgement and decision have been to move on. I
don't find any need to express judgemntal view / running commentary
on his actions. He is what(ever) he is.
> > Or perhaps he is clinically "ill". But then jokes
> > are not in order.
> > Thats a serious clinical diagnosis, a "valid"
> > judgement that could be
> > the basis of personal decisions and actions -- that
> > is, taking actions
> > to have him formally diagnosed and perhaps
> > "committed" if he presents
> > a danger too society. Thats not a joking matter.
> Maybe he is. Who knows? Certainly not me.
Well, above you seemed certain. Then you didn't. See above point, if
he is not clinically insane, or if you have no way of assessing that,
then I suggest that saying so, and making jokes of such, is a
judgemental view -- useless monkey mind chatter that clouds the mind.
Thats my "model" pertaining to my own thinking and actions. You may
clearly adhere to other models.
> > But hey, I know both Uncs and your comments were
> > jokes. I can just
> > laugh. But they are helpful to me in tracing
> > throught this odd little
> > thread in all of our lives called "expectations".
>
> Yes, just jokes that make the truth go down easier.
Again, I don't find your jokes as great sins against humanity. They
were springboards to explore a theme. You can make all the MMY jokes
you want, and I may laugh and get pulled into the monkey mind chatter.
Who knows. (who cares)
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