"There we differ. I am skeptical of everyone else's experiences (in the sense that I do not accept them as either true or false, just what the person said that they experienced). However, I am not skeptical of my own personal subjective experiences. They are about the *only* thing I trust. Your mileage may vary."
This is at the heart of epistemology and spirituality. Here is my "two cents" about the phrase "personal subjective experiences" that seem important to me. Let's say I am walking down the street. A guy comes up and shoves me hard against a building. "What a violent person", I mutter as I walk away. I experienced his violent behavior and I trust my experience. The next day I see a picture in the paper of a person saving a someone else's life by shoving him out of the way of a swinging beam from a construction site. I don't think we have pure experiences to trust, it is always mixed with our valuations of the experiences, our interpretation of what those experiences mean to us. Even if you are thoughtless in a deep meditation experiences, the second you are out and in the world of reflection your values begin to color it. I have had the type of experiences that MMY describes as valuable states of mind, but my evaluation of their meaning has gone through many changes. I trust that I have had such experiences,and can say, "I trust my experiences". But that doesn't mean that I always trust my ability to assign the proper value to them. I have been wrong in my understanding of many experiences in my life. That is where a healthy skepticism about our ability to interpret even our own experiences seem like a version of wisdom. A good case of this is that I used to interpret witnessing sleep as proof that my consciousness was independent of my body. It seemed as though I was having a clear experience of how my soul would continue to live after my death. I was so certain of it, because I felt I was trusting my own experience. One day, in the midst of intense witnessing, I had impacted wisdom teeth pulled out under general anesthetic. With just a small amount of chemicals my consciousness was obliterated. I take that as evidence that when the hardware crashes, the software doesn't work anymore. But I also know that I am not trusting my experience of being knocked out, I am trusting my interpretation of what it means. I am certain I was knocked out, I trust my experience. I am not certain that I am right about the failure of consciousness after death which I am extrapolating from my experience. "Near death" experiences mean "not death" experiences. I am gunna have to differ to Rishi John Lee Hooker on this topic: "Ain't no heaven, ain't no burn'n hell, Where we go when we die, can't nobody tell" JLH (who now knows the truth, either way) Although I don't see anything in any of the descriptions of heaven or going beyond the wheel of birth and death in enlightenment that I find desirable, I sure wouldn't mind another crack at living. Of course I was born into a pretty cushy version of the world, so I'm not sure I would want to risk some of the other lives of suffering that seem so common on this planet. I guess I'll just live as if this is my only life and shot at consciousness. By the luck of the draw and a tiny contribution from my efforts, it is a great life. --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "sparaig" <sparaig@> wrote: > > > > I seldom claim experiences, but I'm pretty sure I've > > mentioned episodes of witnessing dreaming, witnessing > > sleep and witnessing waking states. Additionally, I've > > mentioned what I believe may have been a flash of Unity > > at one point. More recently, perhaps a flash of BC. But, > > how is MY non-permanent state without any external > > indications of its reality different than the insane > > person whose voices tell him to kill people? > > It's *your* experience. > > That is, it may have no validity to someone else, > but as long as it's part of your "experience set," > you have the choice as to whether to believe that > the experience was valid or not. What I'm talking > about is that you have been *very* clear on this > forum in the past that you don't *trust* your > subjective experiences. That's your choice, of > course, but I find it sad. > > No one I've ever heard of in human history has > realized enlightenment without trusting in the > validity of their own experience. I suspect that > no one ever will. No amount of "scientific > evidence" will ever replace that trust. > > > I'm just naturally skeptical of my own experiences and > > everyone else's, including MMY's and Gurudev's and > > Buddha's and Jesus's and so on. > > There we differ. I am skeptical of everyone else's > experiences (in the sense that I do not accept them > as either true or false, just what the person said > that they experienced). However, I am not skeptical > of my own personal subjective experiences. They are > about the *only* thing I trust. 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