Ted,
Reading the collection on emergence that got this started seemed to make clear
to me that the world of people who think in terms of agents (sensu Carmichaeli)
and people for whom thinking of a triangle member as an agent would just not
happen is a fundamental chasm in thinking about emergence. In a sense, what I
am trying to do is build a bridge across that chasm, since I have people with
whom I like to think who live on both sides.
Thanks for you comments,
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Carmichael
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 6/11/2009 4:45:57 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] quick question
I think the difficulty of the "triangle as emergence" problem is trying to
imagine an situation where the "agents" (individual edges of a triangle)
combine and re-combine in different configurations. But if they do, and if the
environment selects structures based on strength, then I can see that the
triangle (or pyramid, in 3 dimensions) is a "basin of attraction" that would
emerge from this environment.
In my mind, homogeneity is important ... although I prefer the phrase
"self-similar," as the agents don't have to be completely the same ... they
just have to be close to each other in their attributes that relate to the
emergent property.
It's a good thought experiment, though. Thanks.
-Ted
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Victoria Hughes <[email protected]> wrote:
Bad keyboard. Go to yer room.
So what criteria or descriptors would you use to identify 'true' emergence?
Tory
On Jun 9, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
I suppose that if, one were to show resistance to compression by number of
sides of an open polygon one would show a non linear function. I have never
been thrilled by the linearity criterion because transformation can usually get
rid of it. So something that is emergent on a ordinary plot becomes
non-emergent on a log plot.
Sorry again to be so short; no disrespect, just hatred for the keyboard I am
working on.
N
-----Original Message-----
From: Victoria Hughes <[email protected]>
Sent: Jun 8, 2009 12:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] quick question
Re ongoing conversations about emergent phenomena:
for the purposes of discussions here+the discuss list:
Is 'non-linearity' an acceptable descriptor?
And out of curiousity how would you plot a linear progression of
attributes that includes 'triangleness'? What elements would you be
graphing?
Tory
On Jun 7, 2009, at 10:25 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
Nick -
But surely we cannot reduce the strength of a triangle to the
strength of its parts because the strength of a triangle depends on
the ARRANGEMENT of those parts. And arrangement is not a property
of any of the parts.
after my missive on Tolerancing and my claim that "Emergence"
requires "nonlinearity", I have to take a pause and accept that you
may be correct that the example of a triangle and it's strength
might be described as emergent.
I hope that a "wise person" will weigh in here. I have to admit to
being left wavering and curious on this one.
Good question Nick.
- Steve
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
