I agree with what Eric and Nick are saying in the sense that people put far too much weight on applying it directly to social theory. I wouldn't be quick to dismiss its pedagogical or practical use. First, obviously its silly to take it literally as a working tool, but isn't it almost as silly to take it literally in order to dismiss it? As most people are aware, these kinds of games are abstractions of real world dilemmas. And dilemmas with perverse incentives occur in the real world. Arguably that they might be seen as the foundation of social dynamics, though that's a kind of crazy claim that I just cooked up. Anyway, these dilemmas have very real potential effects and not uncommonly invovle very crisp binary decisions -- e.g. MAD. These dilemmas involve simultaneous play with little information. And real (or at least perceived) mathematical dilemma involved in which the optimal group solution conflicts with individual goals. OK, silly me, I don't need to tell you guys all this, but though typical situations aren't nearly so crisp, there are issues that drop up every day that I can think of no better way to introduce the basic issues to people than by using this very straightforward example.
IPD has always struck me as kind of silly too, but not for the reason Eric mentions.. On Apr 3, 2010, at 6:40 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote: > George, > I agree that the Prisoner's Dilemma is a good gimmick to get people started > on game theory, especially as it is in every cop drama so all the students > recognize the situation. > > On the other hand it falls apart if you try to push the metaphor too far (and > its been stretched a lot since its inception). Among other problems, > cooperating with the accomplice is not cooperating with the police. > Cooperating with the police is defecting against the accomplice. For that > matter, they are criminals, and cooperating with society involves not > committing crimes (as a near minimal criterion). > > Then you have the problem that an iterated Prisoner's dilemma game makes even > less sense. Would you really team back up with the same guy to rob a second > bank after he put you away for 5 years? Alright, maybe once, but 100 times? > > Again, if you don't think about it too much (and the students generally > don't), it works fine..... > > Eric > > > > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 05:47 PM, George Duncan <[email protected]> wrote: > Nick, > > I find that the Prisoner's Dilemma is a useful way of thinking about how > people's behavior can be manipulated by those with some control over the > reward structure (say the prosecutor). And a PhD student (now professor) and > I (now artist) did a paper on what someone without such control (say the > defense attorney) can do to get them out of the prosecutor's trap. > > The Tragedy of the Commons is different, and a really useful way of thinking > about the need in some cases for social controls to promote cooperation. > > I do find that students still find the Prisoner's Dilemma cute, maybe even > opens up there minds a bit to how social decision making differs from > individual decision making. > > George > > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson > <[email protected]> wrote: > George, > > you are, of course, absolutely correct. > > That is always a weakness to the PD story, which is, at base, a really stupid > way to think about cooperation issues. It is one of those ideas which was > sort of cute at the time, got into all the text books, and has been drilled > into the heads of two generations of students, but really doesnt adequately > represent the crucial variables in the situation and should have been dropped > about two decades ago. It is a case of scientific mob thinking at its > absolute worst. > > The tragedy of the commons model is much clearer and avoids all the cutsy > language that has been promoted by people who know bfa about prisoners and > their dilemmas. > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([email protected]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George Duncan > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Sent: 4/3/2010 3:11:29 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police > > What makes this not a Prisoner's Dilemma is there is no incentive for James > to rat on John and no incentive for John to rat on James. James and John > have an optimal strategy of stonewalling. > > Poor prosecutor! Hard to see how the prosecutor can set up a Prisoner's > Dilemma here, at least without deception. > > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]> wrote: > Now here's a new twist on the Prisoner's Dilemma: > http://slashdot.org/story/10/04/03/1539224/ > > -- Owen > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > -- > George Duncan > georgeduncanart.com > represented by Artistas de Santa Fe > www.artistasdesantafe.com > (505) 983-6895 > > Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. > Soren Kierkegaard > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > -- > George Duncan > georgeduncanart.com > represented by Artistas de Santa Fe > www.artistasdesantafe.com > (505) 983-6895 > > Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. > Soren Kierkegaard > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > Eric Charles > > Professional Student and > Assistant Professor of Psychology > Penn State University > Altoona, PA 16601 > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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