Yes, think of the two prisoners, say Bonnie and Clyde, as having some sort of relationship. I, along with many, teach that the label "cooperate" supports this relationship while "defect" undermines the relationship. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma and http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/prisoner-dilemma/ for more or less standard terminology. Note in the latter that in the payoff matrix we have S < P < R < T (hey, the SPiRiT of the Prisoner's Dilemma). I didn't find students to find this confusing, at least at Carnegie Mellon in public policy.
George On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ted Carmichael <[email protected]> wrote: > Maybe that's the problem ... the orientation of the cooperate/defect > decision is always pair-wise between two prisoners. Perhaps it's not as > confusing that way. > > -T > > > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I ferociously disagree. I found that students were always confused by >> it. In the first place, the four payoff boxes are misnamed because, "to >> cooperate" in that situation means to cooperate with the police, hence to >> defect. "Defect" is also a misleading term. >> >> I also don't see how the cooperation dilemma is different from the >> prisonners dilemma. Just change the headings to sheep grazed on the common >> and the payoffs to sheep weight gain and everything else remains the same. >> >> N >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([email protected]) >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* George Duncan <[email protected]> >> *To: *[email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity >> Coffee Group <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* 4/3/2010 3:47:52 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police >> >> Nick, >> >> I find that the Prisoner's Dilemma is a useful way of thinking about how >> people's behavior can be manipulated by those with some control over the >> reward structure (say the prosecutor). And a PhD student (now professor) and >> I (now artist) did a paper on what someone without such control (say the >> defense attorney) can do to get them out of the prosecutor's trap. >> >> The Tragedy of the Commons is different, and a really useful way of >> thinking about the need in some cases for social controls to promote >> cooperation. >> >> I do find that students still find the Prisoner's Dilemma cute, maybe even >> opens up there minds a bit to how social decision making differs from >> individual decision making. >> >> George >> >> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> George, >>> >>> you are, of course, absolutely correct. >>> >>> That is always a weakness to the PD story, which is, at base, a really >>> stupid way to think about cooperation issues. It is one of those ideas >>> which was sort of cute at the time, got into all the text books, and has >>> been drilled into the heads of two generations of students, but really >>> doesnt adequately represent the crucial variables in the situation and >>> should have been dropped about two decades ago. It is a case of scientific >>> mob thinking at its absolute worst. >>> >>> The tragedy of the commons model is much clearer and avoids all the cutsy >>> language that has been promoted by people who know bfa about prisoners and >>> their dilemmas. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >>> Clark University ([email protected]) >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >>> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* George Duncan <[email protected]> >>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* 4/3/2010 3:11:29 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police >>> >>> What makes this not a Prisoner's Dilemma is there is no incentive for >>> James to rat on John and no incentive for John to rat on James. James and >>> John have an optimal strategy of stonewalling. >>> >>> Poor prosecutor! Hard to see how the prosecutor can set up a Prisoner's >>> Dilemma here, at least without deception. >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Now here's a new twist on the Prisoner's Dilemma: >>>> http://slashdot.org/story/10/04/03/1539224/ >>>> >>>> -- Owen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> George Duncan >>> georgeduncanart.com >>> represented by Artistas de Santa Fe >>> www.artistasdesantafe.com >>> (505) 983-6895 >>> >>> Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. >>> Soren Kierkegaard >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> George Duncan >> georgeduncanart.com >> represented by Artistas de Santa Fe >> www.artistasdesantafe.com >> (505) 983-6895 >> >> Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. >> Soren Kierkegaard >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- George Duncan georgeduncanart.com represented by Artistas de Santa Fe www.artistasdesantafe.com (505) 983-6895 Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. Soren Kierkegaard
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
