I've never liked the explanation of the game as a "prisoner's dilemma"--so I never explain it that way. But I think it's a great illustration of how iterative interactions can differ from one-shot interactions.
-- Russ Abbott ______________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles cell: 310-621-3805 blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ ______________________________________ On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 12:41 PM, George Duncan <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes, think of the two prisoners, say Bonnie and Clyde, as having some sort > of relationship. I, along with many, teach that the label "cooperate" > supports this relationship while "defect" undermines the relationship. See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma> > and > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/prisoner-dilemma/ for more or less > standard terminology. Note in the latter that in the payoff matrix we have S > < P < R < T (hey, the SPiRiT of the Prisoner's Dilemma). I didn't find > students to find this confusing, at least at Carnegie Mellon in public > policy. > > George > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ted Carmichael <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Maybe that's the problem ... the orientation of the cooperate/defect >> decision is always pair-wise between two prisoners. Perhaps it's not as >> confusing that way. >> >> -T >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Nicholas Thompson < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I ferociously disagree. I found that students were always confused by >>> it. In the first place, the four payoff boxes are misnamed because, "to >>> cooperate" in that situation means to cooperate with the police, hence to >>> defect. "Defect" is also a misleading term. >>> >>> I also don't see how the cooperation dilemma is different from the >>> prisonners dilemma. Just change the headings to sheep grazed on the common >>> and the payoffs to sheep weight gain and everything else remains the same. >>> >>> N >>> >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >>> Clark University ([email protected]) >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >>> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* George Duncan <[email protected]> >>> *To: *[email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity >>> Coffee Group <[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* 4/3/2010 3:47:52 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police >>> >>> Nick, >>> >>> I find that the Prisoner's Dilemma is a useful way of thinking about how >>> people's behavior can be manipulated by those with some control over the >>> reward structure (say the prosecutor). And a PhD student (now professor) and >>> I (now artist) did a paper on what someone without such control (say the >>> defense attorney) can do to get them out of the prosecutor's trap. >>> >>> The Tragedy of the Commons is different, and a really useful way of >>> thinking about the need in some cases for social controls to promote >>> cooperation. >>> >>> I do find that students still find the Prisoner's Dilemma cute, maybe >>> even opens up there minds a bit to how social decision making differs from >>> individual decision making. >>> >>> George >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> George, >>>> >>>> you are, of course, absolutely correct. >>>> >>>> That is always a weakness to the PD story, which is, at base, a really >>>> stupid way to think about cooperation issues. It is one of those ideas >>>> which was sort of cute at the time, got into all the text books, and has >>>> been drilled into the heads of two generations of students, but really >>>> doesnt adequately represent the crucial variables in the situation and >>>> should have been dropped about two decades ago. It is a case of >>>> scientific >>>> mob thinking at its absolute worst. >>>> >>>> The tragedy of the commons model is much clearer and avoids all the >>>> cutsy language that has been promoted by people who know bfa about >>>> prisoners >>>> and their dilemmas. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >>>> Clark University ([email protected]) >>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >>>> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> *From:* George Duncan <[email protected]> >>>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<[email protected]> >>>> *Sent:* 4/3/2010 3:11:29 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police >>>> >>>> What makes this not a Prisoner's Dilemma is there is no incentive for >>>> James to rat on John and no incentive for John to rat on James. James and >>>> John have an optimal strategy of stonewalling. >>>> >>>> Poor prosecutor! Hard to see how the prosecutor can set up a Prisoner's >>>> Dilemma here, at least without deception. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Now here's a new twist on the Prisoner's Dilemma: >>>>> http://slashdot.org/story/10/04/03/1539224/ >>>>> >>>>> -- Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ============================================================ >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> George Duncan >>>> georgeduncanart.com >>>> represented by Artistas de Santa Fe >>>> www.artistasdesantafe.com >>>> (505) 983-6895 >>>> >>>> Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. >>>> Soren Kierkegaard >>>> >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> George Duncan >>> georgeduncanart.com >>> represented by Artistas de Santa Fe >>> www.artistasdesantafe.com >>> (505) 983-6895 >>> >>> Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. >>> Soren Kierkegaard >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > > -- > George Duncan > georgeduncanart.com > represented by Artistas de Santa Fe > www.artistasdesantafe.com > (505) 983-6895 > > Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. > Soren Kierkegaard > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
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