Eric writes: Again, if you don't think about it too much (and the students
generally don't), it works fine.....
I disagree. 9 tenths of my students either didnt learn it or all or learned as
a lesson in how powerful people get to not make sense when they talk.
nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
----- Original Message -----
From: ERIC P. CHARLES
To: George Duncan
Cc: [email protected]; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
CoffeeGroup
Sent: 4/3/2010 7:40:58 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police
George,
I agree that the Prisoner's Dilemma is a good gimmick to get people started on
game theory, especially as it is in every cop drama so all the students
recognize the situation.
On the other hand it falls apart if you try to push the metaphor too far (and
its been stretched a lot since its inception). Among other problems,
cooperating with the accomplice is not cooperating with the police. Cooperating
with the police is defecting against the accomplice. For that matter, they are
criminals, and cooperating with society involves not committing crimes (as a
near minimal criterion).
Then you have the problem that an iterated Prisoner's dilemma game makes even
less sense. Would you really team back up with the same guy to rob a second
bank after he put you away for 5 years? Alright, maybe once, but 100 times?
Again, if you don't think about it too much (and the students generally don't),
it works fine.....
Eric
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 05:47 PM, George Duncan <[email protected]> wrote:
Nick,
I find that the Prisoner's Dilemma is a useful way of thinking about how
people's behavior can be manipulated by those with some control over the reward
structure (say the prosecutor). And a PhD student (now professor) and I (now
artist) did a paper on what someone without such control (say the defense
attorney) can do to get them out of the prosecutor's trap.
The Tragedy of the Commons is different, and a really useful way of thinking
about the need in some cases for social controls to promote cooperation.
I do find that students still find the Prisoner's Dilemma cute, maybe even
opens up there minds a bit to how social decision making differs from
individual decision making.
George
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]>
wrote:
George,
you are, of course, absolutely correct.
That is always a weakness to the PD story, which is, at base, a really stupid
way to think about cooperation issues. It is one of those ideas which was sort
of cute at the time, got into all the text books, and has been drilled into the
heads of two generations of students, but really doesnt adequately represent
the crucial variables in the situation and should have been dropped about two
decades ago. It is a case of scientific mob thinking at its absolute worst.
The tragedy of the commons model is much clearer and avoids all the cutsy
language that has been promoted by people who know bfa about prisoners and
their dilemmas.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
----- Original Message -----
From: George Duncan
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 4/3/2010 3:11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police
What makes this not a Prisoner's Dilemma is there is no incentive for James to
rat on John and no incentive for John to rat on James. James and John have an
optimal strategy of stonewalling.
Poor prosecutor! Hard to see how the prosecutor can set up a Prisoner's Dilemma
here, at least without deception.
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]> wrote:
Now here's a new twist on the Prisoner's Dilemma:
http://slashdot.org/story/10/04/03/1539224/
-- Owen
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George Duncan
georgeduncanart.com
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Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward.
Soren Kierkegaard
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
George Duncan
georgeduncanart.com
represented by Artistas de Santa Fe
www.artistasdesantafe.com
(505) 983-6895
Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward.
Soren Kierkegaard
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Eric Charles
Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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