Maybe that's the problem ... the orientation of the cooperate/defect decision is always pair-wise between two prisoners. Perhaps it's not as confusing that way.
-T On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Nicholas Thompson < [email protected]> wrote: > I ferociously disagree. I found that students were always confused by > it. In the first place, the four payoff boxes are misnamed because, "to > cooperate" in that situation means to cooperate with the police, hence to > defect. "Defect" is also a misleading term. > > I also don't see how the cooperation dilemma is different from the > prisonners dilemma. Just change the headings to sheep grazed on the common > and the payoffs to sheep weight gain and everything else remains the same. > > N > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([email protected]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* George Duncan <[email protected]> > *To: *[email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <[email protected]> > *Sent:* 4/3/2010 3:47:52 PM > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police > > Nick, > > I find that the Prisoner's Dilemma is a useful way of thinking about how > people's behavior can be manipulated by those with some control over the > reward structure (say the prosecutor). And a PhD student (now professor) and > I (now artist) did a paper on what someone without such control (say the > defense attorney) can do to get them out of the prosecutor's trap. > > The Tragedy of the Commons is different, and a really useful way of > thinking about the need in some cases for social controls to promote > cooperation. > > I do find that students still find the Prisoner's Dilemma cute, maybe even > opens up there minds a bit to how social decision making differs from > individual decision making. > > George > > On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> George, >> >> you are, of course, absolutely correct. >> >> That is always a weakness to the PD story, which is, at base, a really >> stupid way to think about cooperation issues. It is one of those ideas >> which was sort of cute at the time, got into all the text books, and has >> been drilled into the heads of two generations of students, but really >> doesnt adequately represent the crucial variables in the situation and >> should have been dropped about two decades ago. It is a case of scientific >> mob thinking at its absolute worst. >> >> The tragedy of the commons model is much clearer and avoids all the cutsy >> language that has been promoted by people who know bfa about prisoners and >> their dilemmas. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([email protected]) >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* George Duncan <[email protected]> >> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<[email protected]> >> *Sent:* 4/3/2010 3:11:29 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Slashdot Science Story | Twins' DNA Foils Police >> >> What makes this not a Prisoner's Dilemma is there is no incentive for >> James to rat on John and no incentive for John to rat on James. James and >> John have an optimal strategy of stonewalling. >> >> Poor prosecutor! Hard to see how the prosecutor can set up a Prisoner's >> Dilemma here, at least without deception. >> >> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Now here's a new twist on the Prisoner's Dilemma: >>> http://slashdot.org/story/10/04/03/1539224/ >>> >>> -- Owen >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> George Duncan >> georgeduncanart.com >> represented by Artistas de Santa Fe >> www.artistasdesantafe.com >> (505) 983-6895 >> >> Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. >> Soren Kierkegaard >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > > -- > George Duncan > georgeduncanart.com > represented by Artistas de Santa Fe > www.artistasdesantafe.com > (505) 983-6895 > > Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward. > Soren Kierkegaard > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
