That's exactly Nick's point. He says we should make it a cost to the polluter.
*-- Russ Abbott* *_____________________________________________* *** Professor, Computer Science* * California State University, Los Angeles* * Google voice: 747-*999-5105 * blog: *http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ *_____________________________________________* On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Carl Tollander <[email protected]> wrote: > Ah, but the polluter (the bosses, the bosses they're eating strawberries > and cream!) doesn't give a damn. It's only a "cost" to those folks in, > say, Bhopal, at least during the original time of export and perhaps not > even then until the balloon goes up. The polluter and her accountants don't > even consider it. > > > On 3/24/11 11:22 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > I agree that "export externalities" is a strange phrase. I think the > intended meaning is to export costs to the environment to avoid paying for > them directly. The obvious example is pollution. The polluter doesn't pay > because he exports that cost to the world at large. > > Markets and competition to my mind are quite different things. But that's > a separate thread. > > > > *-- Russ Abbott* > *_____________________________________________* > * Professor, Computer Science* > * California State University, Los Angeles* > > * Google voice: 747-*999-5105 > * blog: *http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ > vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ > *_____________________________________________* > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Carl Tollander <[email protected]> wrote: > > This is a weird turn of phrase, to "export externalities". Where are we > exporting them from if they are already, well, external? Hmph. > > Of course we import them as well, for example the flight you take today is > safer and cheaper because the complex of airplane manufacturers, airports > and regulators conspired to ever more efficiently metabolize the errors that > made some poor chump's airplane fall out of the sky 40 years ago. I think > this is part of the civilization contract. At some point someone in the > future you don't even know will have a better time of it because the > civilization learned from something that made your own life less than > stellar. > > There seem to be some folks that believe this can only happen, or happens > primarily through markets and competition. I confess that the notion that > there is at any given instant a "true cost" or a "true price" for a good or > service is seeming to me increasingly quaint. > > > On 3/24/11 9:38 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > Yes, and no. > > Nick, you wrote, " if we are to base our economy on competition, then the > practice of exporting externalities ... has to stop " The fact is that if > we base our economy on competition, there is every incentive to export > externalities. We can, of course, make rules and regulations that attempt > to limit those exports. And those who benefit by such exports will look for > other ways to export externalities. But I'm sure you and everyone else on > this list already know that. > > *-- Russ * > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Vlad, > > > > Not sure why Peggy’s comment deserved such a trolllish response. > > > > I will join in her view that if we are to base our economy on competition, > then the practice of exporting externalities to the neighborhoods and > nations of the powerless has to stop. We have to work to find the true cost > of products and that needs to be reflected in the price. Then and only then > does competition rise above exploitation. I realize that this is not > necessarily easy, but if one believes in the market place, it has to be > done. > > > > By the way, what more do you need to know to demonstrate that cigarette > smoking has associated health care costs? > > > > Nick Thompson, > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On > Behalf Of *Vladimyr Burachynsky > *Sent:* Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:21 PM > *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] vol 93, issue 22 > > > > It appears that your conclusion was made independent of the facts. Perhaps > your conclusion serves some unidentified agenda, could you explain who WE is > and how the PRICE TAG is adjusted to effect a specific end? > > I ecall how the price of cigarettes in Canada was increased to reflect the > supposed increased health care costs > > > > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] *On > Behalf Of *peggy miller > *Sent:* March-24-11 6:12 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [FRIAM] vol 93, issue 22 > > > > Thanks for input from a number of you on the magnet/toxins/windmill issue. > Seems like we need to get wind turbine price tag to include pollution > mitigation at bare minimum. > > -- > > Peggy Miller, owner/OEO > > Highland Winds > wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds > Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell) > > Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings > > 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) > Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm > Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
