Steve if it's a "sudden" riff of questions it's because I honestly genuinly don't know what else to do to find the rescources I need: I've NEVER on this or any other list consously said (I hope) I simply don't know. Yeah i'm in my "late" (humoursl voice VERY late) 30's): because just say certain fam members reasonably don't know what the heck to do given a rif that's not at all apropiate for this list: I can not rely on them. I do not want to lean on them. So I am all due to some on this list pulling a start-rek trek. I do not want this to be read as sarcastic: I simply genuinly don't know what else to do, or why it might be weird to say: Uh advice please! What ever I was doing before simply isn't working I need some guidance, and advice. I am not at all trying to come off as throwing this in anyones face! I have no idea why it took so long for me to push my comfort zones and want to have friends. No it may not have started as a support group. I do consider many on the list at least aquaintences some strait up friends: Nick and Kim (I have no idea if Kim Sorvice ist still subbed)
What all that said:: I for one hit a wall and fell appart I'll leave what between family and a theriapist. I have never denied I go to those and sorting what the what wrong or very right for the real pros. The observation was simply huh weird do people really find it so weird for a stranger to open doors for them when they have their hands for with groceries (that's a real example)? oO And while at the doctors office someone acted like In vented the chevy volt or hydrogen feul cell: oh sorry sir you can go first. *shruging* no I don't expect to be "budy budy" with a doctor. I DO however think it's reasonable that a pro at least be cordial, not complain about the clock, or that I clearly need and stil need a bit of TLC' That's what those kind of pros are for. I am trying to find the right places for a Re-do. I'm sorry if it came off as a flood or riff for needing and wanting some guidance from people that might have vastly more experience than I do in those areas. Hell that horribly laacking resrouce can well be: oh have tried (forum here) I found them really great for (stuff here)?! I did ask presbytarian because---bluntly I've had enought of Saint Vincents being jerks about routine questions.So why not ask for others experience? is that not a good idea? oO On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Steven A Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > Gil - > > I am intuiting from your current riff of questions/anecdotes here, that > you are feeling out of sorts on many fronts. With a significant > engagement with the health-care system, THAT interface is an important > one for you and is broadly, if not categorically not working for you > right now... various providers and interface staff are not responding > well to you and it is adding to your "out of sortiness". It sounds > like a positive feedback loop, where you are anticipating being > mishandled and sending signals that lead staff/providers to then go off > their normal "bedside manner game" in some way or another which just > reinforces your feelings of being mishandled, etc. I don't mean to > "blame the victim"... just pointing out that you are probably > participating in the breakdown in some way which you might be able to > change and get a better result. > > I have any number of "service" interactions which I know I don't handle > well by my nature. I don't engage in the health care system much at > all (sometimes avoiding for decades) for this reason... I find the whole > paradigm flawed and I wear that on my sleeve when I *do* engage and THAT > naturally puts some of the people I'm interacting with off. Similarly > I have to be thoughtful/careful when I try to buy technology (in person) > or seek repair or parts for my technology. I used to have lots of > problems with cell phone companies (who doesn't?). I often have trouble > with ISPs... and all because I often *do* know more about their > technologies and service than the average customer, and maybe (in some > cases) "just enough to get me in trouble", or at least enough to > irritate the first line service/sales people trying to just get through > their day and sell/install/service 100 more commodity (to them) items. > > Our "service" and "care" systems are optimized to deliver their services > on *their model* and they appear very fragile if you try to get them to > interact on YOUR model. > > Even fast food... "have it your way" is a little like Henry Ford's "you > can have your Model-T in any color you want as long as it is black". > Many can handle simple substitutions/deletions but that is about it. > When I was a young vegetarian I learned to order a "cheeseburger, hold > the meat, and if the cook can handle it, toast the bun upside down".... > What I often got was the "grilled cheese sandwich with lettuce, tomato, > pickle" I wanted but was not on their menu. I don't think I *ever* got a > grilled cheese just by asking for it if it wasn't on their menu, but > nobody ever turned me down on deleting the meat from a cheeseburger. If > the place had served me before it usually went easy and the bun was > usually toasted and "inside out" as I asked. Sometimes I paid full > price for a burger, other times they followed the formula for what an > extra patty would cost and I'd end up with the grilled cheese at a steep > discount: "$2.50 for the cheeseburger - $1.00 for the patty... that will > be $1.00+ tax!" If they were busy, I would just come back another > time... it wasn't in my interest to stress their system for my quirky > preferences. Today it would be gluten-free, keto-friendly, > paleo-compliant, non-gmo, grass-fed-dairy... and $15. > > TLDR: (Auto Mechanic Anecdote) I had the same problem with auto repair > until I recognized what I was doing and made a very acute effort to meet > them on *their turf*. Until I started a 60 mile RT daily commute I had > done most if not all of my own car repair, up to and including swapping > out engines and replacing stripped gears in transmissions. I was not an > expert, but for other shadetree mechanics here, you may know that the > resources are amazing at some level... half the parts you need are > already stocked at a store nearby and they can get virtually any other > within hours or days just by specifying the details of the vehicle and > it's subsystem... third party manuals (Haynes/Chiltons) are far from > perfect but once you find a good one for your vehicle.. and if that > isn't good enough... dealer service manuals are available for about the > price of an hour or three of shop time from a real mechanic, etc. The > bottom line was that I *thought* I knew more about my vehicle than the > mechanic (well, in some ways I did) and I wanted him to start with MY > diagnosis and MY preferred solution when it just didn't fit his > paradigm. Generally mechanics don't trust civilians to know their cars > and the subsystems and diagnose them well, and in fact, if I hadn't dug > into the problem up to my armpits myself, I was often guessing (and > guessing wrong) based on superficial symptoms. In any case, they > almost always disappointed me with their bedside manner... they didn't > want to listen to what I already knew about the problem and they REALLY > didn't want to listen to my repair suggestions. They were usually > superficially polite but my empathetic self had me radiating my own > hostility or doubt in them I suspect. Eventually I tried a mechanic > that was known to me, very convenient and with a generally good > reputation and I backed off and put my vehicles in their hands. I let > them change oil, rotate tires, top off fluids, etc. and I let THEM > tell me when they noticed a growing problem (e.g. oil leaks, bad tread > wear patterns, etc) and they proved quickly to me that THEY were as > competent as I (or more) to notice growing problems and recognize > reasonable solutions. I occasionally mention things to them to look at, > but unless the symptoms are acute, I leave it to them to notice and they > (almost) always do! They have better shop manuals and better tools > (especially a lift in a heated space) and extra hands when a job is > easier with two people. I paid $50/hour (the good ole days) for them > to do things I felt I could do in half (in reality, twice) the time and > it irritated me, but almost exclusively, they *never* lied to me or > mislead me. Previous mechanics I'd tried this with would do a job or > two OK then they would tell me something I knew was patently false > (e.g." you need a new clutch slave cylinder" on a vehicle I knew to have > a mechanical linkage). In retrospect, I don't think they were trying > to cheat me, but might have been being lazy or sloppy... they may have > "guessed" at something without looking closely, not realizing that *my* > model had a different subsystem than the one they were most familiar > with, or they cross-remembered another vehicle, or ??? In any case, I > would go away mad and go back to not trusting mechanics, etc. > > Today it has been almost 20 years I've been with my primary mechanic... > his son has taken over (most of) the business and they know all my > vehicles by heart and are happy to do pre-purchase inspections on new > ones I am considering. Some problems and vehicles I don't bring to > them because they aren't familiar with them. I don't expect them to > work on the hybrid components of my Gen1 Hybrid Insight and I don't ask > them to do much on my 1949 Ford Dump (though they do like the truck, it > doesn't fit in their bays easily and can only be raised about 3 feet on > their lifts, and parts are *very* hard to get, complicated by the fact > the engine is from an early 60's ford farm equipment and while a > standard Ford design, has oddities specific to the tractor/thresher/??? > it was pulled from. I only asked them to try to tune the mechanical > fuel injection on my mid-80s VW Cabriolet once... then did it myself > after not finding an obvious mechanic with specific familiarity. I'm > in the midst of trying to get a new (used) 20Kwh hybrid battery > installed in my 2011 Chevy Volt. It weighs 400 lbs, carries 360V when > energized, has sophisticated battery management subsystems and > integrating systems internal and external to it, and has to interface to > a number of computerized subsystems including the main computer, the > ECU, a charging control system, etc. The service manager at the dealer > is waaaay over his head on this project and I get the sense that the > factory trained tech (for this specific model) has not had occasion to > ever remove or replace (or diagnose beyond pulling DTC codes from the > main computer). But I know I am at their mercy. The vehicle > subsystems are so specific to GM that (almost literally?) nobody except > GM dealers have the specialized tools and computer codes/software to > handle the re-energizing/calibrating of a battery. The physical > aspects of swapping the battery are daunting enough, especially without > a lift, and I wouldn't expect ANY sane mechanic with a lift, etc. to > want to mess with this HV system. I have done enough hybrid/EV/HV > electronics work to feel I could do it safely myself, but it would be > only *my life* on the line. So I had to talk the service manager > through discovering that his Volt trained technician *could* install a > battery not provided by GM directly (a very few others have done this > around the US) and come up with the shop hours (7@$111) for the > procedure so I could order up a salvaged one (from a low-mileage > recently wrecked vehicle) to be delivered to them by freight. (BTW, a > NEW (refurbished?) GM Battery System is $8K retail plus installation). > > I'm sure the service manager was frustrated with me *many* times along > the way and his demeanor often left me wanting to cop my own attitude > and "go away mad". I think now that we are at the point of having > scheduled the work and the battery is en-route... he has become > intrigued by the project and probably wants to see it succeed rather > than just "wanting me to go away" which is how I felt through more than > a little of the process. And *I was aware* of the pitfalls of wanting > non-standard things that I have more knowledge about than the service > providers and I *still* stressed them almost to their limit. I *wanted* > to blame them and be angry and resentful, but I had to acknowledge that > my kind of task is NOT their bread and butter, that the individuals (and > the whole system) has to see an upside to working with me before they > are going to be willing, much less positive about it. > > Gil... YOU may be the Chevy Volt of the human world. Your needs may be > unusual enough that it is *hard* for the standard systems to meet you on > their terms and as you probably already know/guess, it really is up to > you to understand what the system is capable of and how to meet it on > terms where neither you nor they are too stressed by the interface to > function properly. I don't know you *well* but believe you to have the > self-awareness to find productive ways to change your > interface/expectations enough to begin to reduce the stress you are > feeling right now. Your other stated activities (hiking, gym, dancing, > etc.) seem like very positive directions to help you regulate (physical > activity is almost always a positive thing for virtually everyone) and > find new and varied friends and interests. I don't make it to WedTech > often (annually if lucky?) but next time I'm in town with some time on > my hands, maybe we can get together for a bite or some coffee or tea and > we can bore (entertain?) one another with anecdotes about trying to > interface with a world of commodity objects and services. > > - Steve > > > On 7/13/18 9:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Perhaps the first step needs to be "How sensitive is this patient to > bedside manner?", and from that estimate then prioritize the relative > timing of one sort of analysis over another. I assume I'm dealing with an > intelligent, if imperfect, person. I think it takes some self-control to > be a good patient, too. > > > > On 7/13/18, 9:13 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝʃƃ" < > [email protected] on behalf of [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Perhaps. But if that's the case, I would immediately leave and find > another Dr. As I explained before, and is peppered throughout Renee's > training, the "assessment of the patient", which involves really *looking* > at the patient, is more powerful than any other (set of) metric(s). > > > > To be clear, the patient assessment machine can be completely > autistic. But they must "assess the patient" by looking at her. > > > > On 07/13/2018 08:06 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > Is it not possible the doctor looking at her computer is just like > Glen listening to music without moving? Focusing on the facts of the > matter and not on distracting emotional signals? > > > > > > On 7/13/18, 9:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝʃƃ" < > [email protected] on behalf of [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > For what it's worth, my Dr. thanked me after our 1st > interaction. He walked in with his laptop, sat down and started poking at > it. I then used my familiarity with electronic medical records (I was a > product mgr at such a company at one point) to finagle his attention and > demonstrate our mutual affinity for how computation can help him provide > good healthcare. I even explained how I'd looked him up online beforehand > and knew all the schools he went to and that he had no active malpractice > suits against him. (Which was no small feat since he's an immigrant from > India.) > > > > > > That interaction successfully grabbed his attention. Perhaps, > since you're also computer literate, you could use the same trick next time > a Dr's attention is too focused on the computer? > > > > > > On 07/13/2018 07:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > > It is a bigger problem that people are more concerned about > `getting along’ than they are about maintaining a functional government. > > > > As for doctors, I don’t want them to my friend. I want > them to take their limited time and focus their extensive training, to > rationalize the symptoms I present. > > > > > > > > From: Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of > Gillian Densmore <[email protected]> > > > > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> > > > > Date: Friday, July 13, 2018 at 8:39 AM > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > > > > Subject: [FRIAM] Weird observation > > > > > > > > While at doctor's office trying ask a nurse to politely > express to a doctor that it comes off as rude when that doc is obssed with > a computer gets a reaction like you've invented warp drive. > > > > > > > > Is it really that unusual for people to try to actively be > cordial these days? If so captian we got a problem! > > > > > > -- > > ∄ uǝʃƃ > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
