You forget that sound memorization is just as important in an audio game as
a mianstream one. The only difference is that audio games will hold your
hand the whole way through and explain each sound even though most of them
are so obvious it isn't very hard to learn. Mainstream games are the same
case, and anyone who has any ability to memorize and distinguish sounds
should not have a problem with them. It's just that mainstream games have
more subtle audio rather than the glaringly obvious sounds in Audio Games.
Also, audio games require memorization of so many different commands, some
would say that playing a fighting game is almost easier, because there is no
need to memorize more than 10-15 keys, combos aside and those are basically
sequences of those keys.
As to Bokurano Daibouken, one may be able to learn Japanese, yes, but that
is actually expending more effort than it would take to learn a sighted
game's menu. Japanese, or any other language for that matter, takes years to
study even to get a basic understanding. the only way you could lear nthe
menus would be to find the vocab associated with it, and reading a list of
menus is far faster, and is what one would do for a mainstream which means
less effort. Also, sighted are the ones faqs are designed for. Fighting game
players, since that's the genre most commonly brought up, will actually
rarely use the command list other than the first time glance at the game.
This is because there is a lot more to memorize such as move properties,
frame data, etc. So in truth, sighted players sometimes actually have more
to memorize... and what do you think people have to do for imported games?
It all happens, so the effort is still the same at least in that regard.
Menus still need to be learned. Whether we can get around print or not, is
the effort not worth it? Are blind people spoiled with everything being
self-voiced and not actually having to learn? Effort is part of the
challenge of the game and should not be looked on as anything but that. And
especially with mainstream games, again, what mainstream developers really
would care? We make up less than 10% of their audience, and most anime
fighting games do have voiced menus.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!
Hi clemment.
Interesting questions, I don't take them as antagonistic, ---- remember
that debating such issues is what I spend a lot of my time doing.
On the matter of menues, they may "not take much memorization when your
used to them" but they still take some, and that "when your used to them
is quite telling"
A ten year old child who'd never played a beatemup before could instantly
go and play streetfighter, read the menues, and have access to the game,
where as that is not true for someone doing it first time via audio.
though I do agree the "inaccessibility" of the game grows less as you get
used to such things like anything else, it's not true that it ever utterly
disappears, or that the amount of effort you expend on it and upon other
games acquiring that level of proficiency isn't itself far more than a
sighted player.
afterall, even if you are quite used to playing beatemups, you still! will
need a faq to read character prophiles and move lists, and may well have
to have the faq with you while playing, where as a sighted player can just
use the movelist option in game on the pause menue, ---- then of course
there is the sound memorization angle, sinse a sighted player can
instantly see what a given move is. however good you are at learning the
moves by sound (and I don't dispute the fact that you can! become good),
you still cannot have that easy access, and could not unless capcom
introduced some sort of spoken interface to describe the moves to you and
give you their sounds, or some sound clues to instantly identify what a
move was without initial memorization.
As to bockerano debuken, I've not played the game yet myself actually,
sinse however we were talking about accessibility differences betwene
disabled and none disabled people, it would seem that the menue
memorization in Bockerano debuken doesn't fall into the same catagory,
sinse the relevant information that you have to work around acquiring is
not visual but Japanese, and it wouldn't matter what sort of eyesight a
person had, sinse it's the capacity to understand Japanese here, rather
than the capacity to read printed menues and understand images displayed
only graphically that makes the difference in effort.
so, if we were to apply the term "inaccessible" to bockerano debuken, we
would say "inaccessible to English speakers" rather than "inaccessible to
disabled people" which is a very different use of the term indeed.
Another major difference in the case of bockerano debuken, is that where
as you could! learn japanese, or at least learn enough japanese to
understand the menues in the game, there is no possible world in which a
person who is biologically unable to read printed menues and must use
memorization can expend enough effort to get around this.
You can't just "learn to read print" or "learn to see graphics" and apply
that knolidge to graphical games, the way you could learn japanese and
apply that knolidge to bockerano debuken.
Your memorization of menues and game sounds is not a substitute for
reading them, and does not give you quantatively the same effortless
experience of undrstanding and playing the game, where as your learning of
Japanese would! eventually give you the same experience of the game as a
japanese speaker would have.
Of course, both cases are similar in the sense that both are not good
situations for a lot of people, and it would be good the effort to play
both could be equalized, however where as that might be possible with
bockerano debuken if more of the game could be translated, ---- that
probably won't be with mainstream games.
Beware the grue!
dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clement Chou" <chou.clem...@gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a Wii
game for the blind!
So technically, a game like Bokura no Dabiouken is not accessible because
you obviously have to learn the menus if you are not a Japanese speaker.
Also, the story line is completely absent for someone who speaks any
language other than Japanese. Yes, there is an English patch, however it
is just that, a patch... and does not translate the game fully. Does this
mean that is not accessible? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just feel
that this is quite an interesting discussion to have. One can take a
fighting game and learn the menus quite quickly, there is no need to
write them down if you can menorize even the simplest of structures. And
lastly, what big mainstream game developers has ever been known to be
reasonable on the accessibility front of things? lol Especially Capcom.
Though, Street fighter x tekken will have the character names announced
as you scroll over the character selection screen, so you know who you
are picking instead of finding out who you picked.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <d...@xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers@audyssey.org>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Game accessibility was,Re: FINALLY! There is a
Wii game for the blind!
Hi Dan, fair enough.
perhaps though in this case, using the word "accessible" isn't
appropriate, say rather such games are playable with not too great an
effort.
Beware the grue!
dark.
-----
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