Our msgs crossed in the ether. Please see my msg on "J In A Day" posted about 8 minutes ago.
----- Original Message ----- From: Ian Clark <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, October 24, 2010 21:45 Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] Pronoun and proverb? To: General forum <[email protected]> > Thanks, Roger. > > So... if when referring to a statement: foo=: i. 9 > I call foo a "pronoun" and say it corresponds (kind-of) to a variable > in APL, nobody's going to disagree? > > Am I the only one who has a problem with this? > > Ian > > > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:19 AM, Roger Hui <[email protected]> wrote: > > Well in the natural language the pronoun "he" > > sometimes can refer to Ian, and in other times > > refer to Ken, and in yet other times to Roger, > > right? > > > > The analogy English grammar terms and > > J grammar terms is not watertight. You carry > > it out only as far as it's helpful. The main areas > > where the analogy is _very_ helpful is adverb > > and verb. In contrast, try explaining "operator" > > to a beginner, and (speaking of angel-balancing) > > try explaining the difference between an operator > > and a function. > > > > The first reference I can find of Ken's use of noun/verb > > in APL is in Chapter 1 of "Algebra: An Algorithmic > > Treatment", 1972 > > http://keiapl.org/anec/#algebra > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ian Clark <[email protected]> > > Date: Sunday, October 24, 2010 10:40 > > Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] Pronoun and proverb? > > To: General forum <[email protected]> > > > >> Yes, I saw all that. > >> > >> But, to my mind, there's something Humpty-Dumpty about it all... > >> > >> If I input: > >> > >> foo=: +/ > >> fie=: foo&99"_ > >> fie f. > >> foo=: i. 9 > >> fie f. > >> > >> ...is foo now a pronoun, whereas it was hitherto a proverb? Or > >> is it > >> 'foo' that's the pronoun? After all, English grammar is all to > >> do with > >> words, not the things they (might conceivably) designate. > >> > >> Could we say that foo was always a pronoun and never was a proverb > >> (although there was indeed a synonymous proverb... one that > was erased > >> to avoid a name clash)? > >> > >> I can think of cases where this sort of angel-balancing matters. > >> ...In the above series of statements, one could argue. > >> > >> I've only just today met the J term: "pronoun". Hitherto I've been > >> blithely calling foo (as in foo=: i.9) a "noun". Whereas in > APL I > >> would never have confused a variable, the name of the > variable, and > >> its (current) value. > >> > >> And in Dyalog APL (I vaguely recall) it's possible to create > un-named > >> objects having nameclass 9 --and make them do things. > >> > >> SNOBOL, I recall, made a meal of this issue. A dog's-dinner, > indeed.>> > >> Ian > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Dan Bron <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > It means what you think: Something that stands for (pro-) a > >> verb. The only J entities capable of "standing for" (as opposed > >> to just "being") in J are names. Hence, a proverb is a name > >> whose referent is a verb / a name which has been assigned to a > >> verb / a name with nameclass verb (3)*. > >> > > >> > This definition is difficult to find in the DoJ, but it's > >> there [1]: > >> > > >> > "The word =: behaves like the copulas “is” and “are” in > >> English, and is read as such, as in “area is 3 times 4” for > >> area=: 3*4 . The name area thus assigned is a pronoun and, as in > >> English, it plays the role of a noun. Similar remarks apply to > >> names assigned to verbs, adverbs, and conjunctions." > >> > > >> > -Dan > >> > > >> > > >> > [1] DoJ §II : > http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dict2.htm>> > > >> > > >> > * We need a better word for user assignable names like "area" > >> to distinguish them from system-defined names like "a." or > "*" . > >> Ideas anyone? > >> > Please excuse typos; composed on a handheld device. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Ian Clark <[email protected]> > >> > Sender: [email protected] > >> > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:19:58 > >> > To: General forum<[email protected]> > >> > Reply-To: General forum <[email protected]> > >> > Subject: [Jgeneral] Pronoun and proverb? > >> > > >> > Could someone please define the J term "proverb" for me? > >> > I've scanned: > >> > >> << Ndx Usr Pri JfC LJ Phr Dic Rel Voc !: > >> wd Help > >> > but I'm still not sure. > >> > > >> > I can guess, but I want to know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
