On Thursday 20 February 2003 6:36 am, Henti Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:56:30 -0500
>
> Phil Barnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 19 February 2003 1:11 pm, Sundance wrote:
> > > Hmm, then I'd say it's pretty much -your- responsibility, not Gentoo's,
> > > to add this abstraction layer the way -you- want it.
> >
> > Perhaps this is true, but if you can admit that you are more likely to
> > have a room full of RH servers than a room full of Gentoo or any other
> > distro servers, you are on the way to my point. And, this mythical room
> > full of servers is statistically proven. RH has more servers out there.
>
> Then we statistically out of bounds since 90% of my linux server at my
> offices are gentoo and strangely enought not one RH server. Your point is
> thus mute.

Yes, for you I guess you are right. Too bad the rest of the planet is not in 
the same boat. If so, it just wouldn't be an issue at all.

> > I don't have any problems with that, but everyone here is biased. The
> > fact is that there are more RH servers out there than any other single
> > distro. With that said, I do see that RH has symlinked /etc/init.d to
> > /etc/rc.d/init.d.
>
> Gentoo does not care for the whole linux community "larry the cow" was
> frustrated with the state of the current distributions (very possibly RH
> since as you noted it's majority) he found the functionality he wanted
> instead of the functionailty THEY WANTED YOU TO HAVE.

This is not bad functionality. It's simplicity. Simplicity is good no matter 
where it comes from.

> please go read the whole idea behind gentoo at
> http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml I serously think you are missing
> the whole point of gentoo.

I've read it before, but it doesn't make any difference. I want what I want, 
not what you want, so there.

The issue here is not what I want or what you want. It's what is good for the 
distro and what is not. Having an abstraction script doesn't mean that you 
have to use it. You can go merrily along ignoring it all the while others 
benefit from it. As it is today, you use hundreds of abstraction scripts to 
make using Linux and Gentoo easier. You just don't have to think about them 
because they are inherent in the distribution. If I took them from your box, 
you'd freak out.

> > Exactly, and it's not just in RH by the way. At any rate, that service
> > script is already on more servers that you give credit for.
>
> still does not mean we HAVE to have it in gentoo.
> make a ebuild submit it ... work the system.

I never stated that we HAVE to have it in Gentoo. I stated that it would be 
nice, but that's about the extent of my desire. Please don't invent motives 
for me. I have quite enough motives of my own.

> > Well, it's been my desktop for about 6 months and I'm doing just fine
> > with it. I just miss the service abstraction that I've become used to
> > from several other distros.
>
> scp user@rhbox:/usr/bin/service /usr/bin/service
> /usr/bin/service
>
> if works fine

Well, actually, no, it doesn't work fine. If it did, it would never have come 
up.

> if not
>
> vi /usr/bin/service fix

Great idea. I just wish I had time to play around with it.

> > And, yes, I can put it there. But, being such a small script and being as
> > widely used as it is, I don't see any reason for it to not be in there.
> > There are literally dozens of other abstractions that we all take for
> > granted in nearly every distro. This is just another one.
>
> then fork the gentoo base and make your own distro with "service" in at the
> moment you are just complaining and not interrested in doing work, but
> expecting everybody else to do it because you want it.

Ok, we'll burn down the barn to get rid of the rats. What a good idea. This 
seems a rather draconian way to get a service script into a distro, but I 
guess I'll have to take my lumps.

> > I'll not tilt at windmills. It's not for me to say which abstractions you
> > never notice and which you do.
>
> some of us don't need abstractions to work with servers

I bet if I removed all the abstractions from your servers, you'd scream bloody 
murder. You just don't think of them as abstractions because you are used to 
they way they work. Go take a cruise through your Gentoo /sbin directory and 
see how many shell scripts are in there. Those are abstractions. Do you want 
to live without them? You don't need those shell scripts. You could do all 
that by hand.

> > I'm sure you will agree that you take advantage of dozens of abstractions
> > just like that one every day...
>
> Yes ... indeed .. like adding you to my mail filter from now on as you have
> nothing of use to say anymore. 

That's not an abstraction. That's specific. Adding everyone to your mail 
filter would be abstract.

> You are lazy.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 

I'm the manager of a 4 year open source project creating a cross platform 
compiler(Yes, Linux is one of them). Dozens of developers and hundreds of 
thousands of lines of code. I'm a senior analyst at a fortune 50 company and 
I put in around 60 hours a week there. I am the president of our local LUG. I 
helped form it and incorporate it non-profit. I've brought Linux into the 
hands of thousands of Windows users. I help educate new Linux users at a 
monthly meeting and a monthly installfest. I arrange the venues for these 
meetings. I arrange for and attend a monthly board of directors meeting for 
our LUG. Lessee, that's 36 meetings a year in the name of Linux, not counting 
the several trade shows and local events that we attend and hand out distro's 
and advice. I also run a web hosting service and donate disk space and 
bandwidth to many non-profits mixed in with the paying clients.

If that's lazy, I guess I'll just go out and shoot myself now and get it over 
with.

I just don't have any more hours to give, Henti. None. Nada. I guess I could 
tell my wife that I won't be seeing her any more so I can dedicate some time 
to a service script for Gentoo, but it doesn't seem quite that important to 
me.

> you demand something from
> gentoo based of your exprience disregarding others experiance as "wrong"

I didn't demand anything. I said it would be nice to have. I said I hoped it 
woud trigger someone's imagination. I can live totally without it. It's no 
big deal to me. It appears that you have decided that it's a big deal to you 
to not have it. That's ok with me. If one arrives giftwrapped, I don't expect 
you to emerge it or use it. Fair enough?

> you refuse to add it yourself and refuse to contribute to it being added if
> so desired.

I haven't refused to do any such thing. It just doesn't climb up high enough 
on my desires vs time list to become something I would dedicate myself to.

When you resort to ad-hominem attacks, you have admitted that you have no more 
reason.


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