Carlos C. Gonzalez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> On April 3, 2003 08:11 am, Robert Spahr wrote:
>
> [snipped]
>
> > Educate the companies.. do not dumb down Gentoo!
>
> It never ceases to amaze me how adding a nice installer and hardware detection
> front-end to Gentoo and other such things is considered by many to be a
> dumbing down of Gentoo. Honestly. I just plain can't understand it.
It's easy. If you have an easy installer, you have a very low barrier
to entry. Anyone can do it, and then they get in and "surprise" this
distribution isn't redhat. Nor is it as easy to administer as redhat.
"Surprise" bad things can happen, and you have to be able to fix them.
> How would adding something like an automated install and hardware detection
> dumb Gentoo down? The command line and the opportunity to install things
> manually (aka the hard way to do things) would still remain available.
It's not about what remains available. It's about who that kind of
distribution attracts. And once you have newbie's here, who've just
barely managed to get the install done, you'll have them spamming the
lists and forums with questions that are answered in documentation, or
that they should just plain already know before using a distro like this.
As a result, people who actually know what they are doing, and can answer
/real/ problems and questions will leave the list to avoid the noise.
And the developers will get so tired of being pestered about things that
they should never have to deal with that they'll make changes to "dumb"
gentoo down to avoid it. They can't be blamed for this btw, it's just
self-defense. A perfect example is this whole optimizaiton thing.
Someone capable of setting up gentoo, particularly one setting all those
optimization flags, should know enough to try rebuilding with a lower
setting if weird unexplainable things are going on. But because we
are ALREADY at a point where we have too many people below that bar
constantly making bug reports that can be fixed by reducing optimizations
we now have a problem of trying to protect them from themselves so that
we can reduce the workload of the developers, from all their bogus bug
reports.
> If by dumbing down we mean that Gentoo will not challenge one's to rise to the
> vigarous exercise of learning how to tinker, and configurate, and pull their
> hair out once in a while as they learn the intricacies of "power use" then it
> seems to me that to not give people the chance to skip some of that is to
> limit their choices.
>
> Something that seems contrary to the whole spirit of open source and GPL.
> Namely choice.
That's ridiculous. You have plenty of choice. If you don't like gentoo's
install you can choose to install redhat, or suse, or whatever. Do you
go to redhat's mailing lists and complain that they aren't offering choice
because they don't have an installer like gentoo's? Aren't they limiting
choice by not doing so? If all distros have to offer all the options so
that everyone has your definition of choice then why would we even bother
having different distros?
Are we limiting choice by not having redhat packaging as an option? Not
to mention dpkg, and autopackage, ad nauseum?
> As it stands now people have no choice in this matter. It's either gut it out
> and spend tons of time working through all kinds of Gentoo quirks and
> idiosyncracies or go to another distribution.
Exactly. Wait ... either ... or ... isn't that pretty much a perfect
example of choice?
> I can't wait to become an expert on Gentoo and to have the time to create my
> own distribution based on Gentoo. That will take the best of Gentoo and add
> a healthy dose of what I call "ease of use" based on what Redhat and other
> distros are doing.
Look. If you like what redhat and other distros are doing why don't you
use those distros? I'm not trying to be mean, it's an honest question.
Why try to make gentoo like another distro you like instead of just
using the distro you like?
But if this is what you want, you are sure as heck welcome to start your
own distribution based on gentoo with a graphical installer. The license
certainly allows for that. Just make sure you don't point your users
here for support.
> I honestly don't understand it. Especially when anything having to do with
> making Gentoo easier to install and use is seen as "dumbing" down Gentoo.
> Ease of use in my thinking is not equal to dumbing down a distribution. As
> if everyone using such ease enhancements would be a dummy.
>
> I and many others who are no dummies, would use such enhancements for the
> simple reason that they save time, add consistentcy, and allow us to get the
> most out of Gentoo quicker. As well as "sell" it more successfully to our
> bosses or our customers.
No, using those enhancements doesn't make you a dummy. It doesn't negatively
reflect on the user at all. However, it is indisputable, that some people
are /only/ capable of using such enchancements. And once you make them
available, those people will also try to use it. ANd as a /direct/ result
of that, gentoo will be dumbed down to accomodate them. Not because we want
to but, but because we would HAVE to, just to survive the onslaught.
> Granted! This might be a different use for Gentoo than many might use it for.
> But it would definitely enhance Gentoo in the sense of giving everyone a
> greater degree of choice over why and how they want to use Gentoo.
You can't expect gentoo to be all things to everyone. It has a specific
target. It's meeting that target very well. You can't criticize it for
not hitting targets it is not aiming at.
You have the source, so you have all the choice you could possibly want,
even within the gentoo space. If you really want the gentoo you're describing
start another distro, and put it in there. I wish you the greatest success.
I just don't want it to be this distribution.
> I hope I didn't come across too strongly Robert.
I too hope I didn't come across too strongly. I love this distribution,
and as a result I can be quite vehement in defending it. You see, while
there are lots of other choices for a distribution that has a user friendly
front end/installer/etc there are NO other distributions like gentoo. So
if it gets ruined I have no other choices.
--
'I cannot lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a
right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of
their constituents.'
--James Madison
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