Hi Mark, On April 4, 2003 09:13 am, Mark Bainter wrote:
> > It never ceases to amaze me how adding a nice installer and hardware > > detection front-end to Gentoo and other such things is considered by many > > to be a dumbing down of Gentoo. Honestly. I just plain can't understand > > it. > > It's easy. If you have an easy installer, you have a very low barrier > to entry. Anyone can do it, and then they get in and "surprise" this > distribution isn't redhat. Nor is it as easy to administer as redhat. > "Surprise" bad things can happen, and you have to be able to fix them. You know I think I am beginning, albeit just beginning, to see the logic of keeping Gentoo from being too easy. Hmm..... > > How would adding something like an automated install and hardware > > detection dumb Gentoo down? The command line and the opportunity to > > install things manually (aka the hard way to do things) would still > > remain available. > > It's not about what remains available. It's about who that kind of > distribution attracts. And once you have newbie's here, who've just > barely managed to get the install done, you'll have them spamming the > lists and forums with questions that are answered in documentation, or > that they should just plain already know before using a distro like this. Hmm.... You may have a point here too Mark. I guess I tend to view newbies through the lens of my experience. Since I still consider myself a newbie. I tend to read the documentation and do my own research and frankly oftentimes I find that's it quicker for me to do that than post another question. I find that 99.99 percent of my questions do not have ready answers found in the FAQ's or by a search of Google Linux or the Gentoo forum. Many of my questions come about as a result of having to work my way through holes left in the Gentoo documentation or my relative inexperience with Linux. But I guess I have to concede that there are many newbies which just want everything fed to them on a silver platter. I can't expect every newbie to put in the time and the effort that I have to getting a Gentoo system up and running and running reasonably well. > As a result, people who actually know what they are doing, and can answer > /real/ problems and questions will leave the list to avoid the noise. > And the developers will get so tired of being pestered about things that > they should never have to deal with that they'll make changes to "dumb" > gentoo down to avoid it. They can't be blamed for this btw, it's just > self-defense. Hmm...good point. > > If by dumbing down we mean that Gentoo will not challenge one's to rise > > to the vigarous exercise of learning how to tinker, and configurate, and > > pull their hair out once in a while as they learn the intricacies of > > "power use" then it seems to me that to not give people the chance to > > skip some of that is to limit their choices. > > > > Something that seems contrary to the whole spirit of open source and GPL. > > Namely choice. > > That's ridiculous. A bit strong here Mark :). I'll take it as an expression of your intense feelings on the subject and not as a personal lambast of what I said. > You have plenty of choice. If you don't like gentoo's > install you can choose to install redhat, or suse, or whatever. Do you > go to redhat's mailing lists and complain that they aren't offering choice > because they don't have an installer like gentoo's? Aren't they limiting > choice by not doing so? If all distros have to offer all the options so > that everyone has your definition of choice then why would we even bother > having different distros? > > Are we limiting choice by not having redhat packaging as an option? Not > to mention dpkg, and autopackage, ad nauseum? I guess when I consider Linux as a whole there are indeed plenty of choices. I still say that Gentoo does not offer much of a choice between an easy installation and one that in my mind is terribly quirky but I can see where it's a matter of perspective. That is whether the choice is Linux or Gentoo specific. I can also see the value of having a distribution to cater to a specif group of Linux users. Namely "power users". > > I can't wait to become an expert on Gentoo and to have the time to create > > my own distribution based on Gentoo. That will take the best of Gentoo > > and add a healthy dose of what I call "ease of use" based on what Redhat > > and other distros are doing. > > Look. If you like what redhat and other distros are doing why don't you > use those distros? Because I like Gentoo better for various reasons. Certainly nothing to do with the hairy installation or hassles of configurating packages. More with where Gentoo is going, the willingness of forum and list members to help out, and the flexibility that Gentoo gives me in creating the kind of distribution I want for myself or that I want to offer my customers. > I'm not trying to be mean, it's an honest question. Thanks for clarifying that. The "Look" part did come accross a bit strong :) > Why try to make gentoo like another distro you like instead of just > using the distro you like? Because there are things I really like in Gentoo that other distros have and things that Gentoo has which are much better than other distros. Since Gentoo is my distribution of choice it stands to reason that I would want it to take on the good things of other distros. > But if this is what you want, you are sure as heck welcome to start your > own distribution based on gentoo with a graphical installer. The license > certainly allows for that. Just make sure you don't point your users > here for support. Hmm...I will have to seriously consider whether to continue with my attempts to totally rewrite the existing documentation from scratch, newbiesize it, and host it at one of my web sites. I have been working on that in the same spirit that O'Reilly authors try to create books that make things much easier to understand. But I can see that there is also a responsibility to the Gentoo community that I must keep in mind. How will my newbiesized documents affect the community? Will it indeed cause a flood of spurious newbie questions? Not saying that I will stop creating better documents (for purposes of newbies or those who don't want to re-try installing Gentoo twenty times). I'll have to think about what you said. For sure. At the very least, assuming I continue, I will have to write my documents in such a way that newbie questions will tend to be minimized. And I will have to evaluate whether my newbiesized docs will promote more questions or less. A very interesting issue for sure. One I hadn't thought much about until now. > > I and many others who are no dummies, would use such enhancements for the > > simple reason that they save time, add consistentcy, and allow us to get > > the most out of Gentoo quicker. As well as "sell" it more successfully > > to our bosses or our customers. > > No, using those enhancements doesn't make you a dummy. It doesn't > negatively reflect on the user at all. Glad to hear you think that Mark but I am not so sure that others in the Gentoo community would agree with you. In regard to those using those enhancements not being dummy's. It seems to me that there is definitely an underlying current of belief that anyone who cannot install and work with Gentoo is still a Linux dummy. And that they should RTFM. As if the manuals are so easily understood by anyone with half a brain. It's assumed that if they would only read the manuals they would understand it all. Never mind that the manuals themselves might be less than clear. I don't how many times I have heard statements to the effect of "well, it works for me" also. As though that alone should make me realize that if I was a more experienced Linux user the solutions to the problems would be self-evident. Gurus tend to speak down to those who don't know as much as a general rule I think. Precisely because they end up starting to know so much that it starts to get to their heads. Linux gurus seem to have a greater propensity to do this due to the much greater amounts of knowledge that they must master (relative to Windows). Unfortunately it seems that Gentoo, because it tends to attract lots of gurus, tends to exhibit more of this guru superiority attitude that seems generally present in Linux as a whole. Please don't get me wrong Mark. There are many great gurus in the Gentoo community who are very helpful and I am very, very grateful for their help. But unfortunately that underlying attitude of superiority tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth whenever it pops up. Thus my desire to create whole new documents for those new to Gentoo. So I agree with you that using ease of use enhancements does not make anyone a dummy but sometimes it sure seems like there are others in the Gentoo community who would equate such use with being a dummy. And who would look down on anyone wanting to add this to Gentoo or use such enhancements as being a Windows dummy, lazy, or otherwise backwards in some way. > However, it is indisputable, that > some people are /only/ capable of using such enchancements. Ah...now there you have a point Mark. > And once you > make them available, those people will also try to use it. ANd as a > /direct/ result of that, gentoo will be dumbed down to accomodate them. > Not because we want to but, but because we would HAVE to, just to survive > the onslaught. Good point again Mark. How to weed out those that either are not capable or simply don't want to work at it while providing the best easiest to use distribution for the rest...that is the question. There may not be a ready answer other than to have Gentoo continue to be what it is. An absolute pain the butt to install and configure (partly a Linux problem) but well worth in the long run. > > Granted! This might be a different use for Gentoo than many might use it > > for. But it would definitely enhance Gentoo in the sense of giving > > everyone a greater degree of choice over why and how they want to use > > Gentoo. > > You can't expect gentoo to be all things to everyone. It has a specific > target. It's meeting that target very well. You can't criticize it for > not hitting targets it is not aiming at. Well put Mark. I think I have indeed been wanting Gentoo to be more than what it is. Perhaps my expectations are a bit unrealistic given that Gentoo is made for a target audience different than the one I have in mind to use it for (anyone coming over to Linux from Windows and customers of mine who want to try Linux). > You have the source, so you have all the choice you could possibly want, > even within the gentoo space. If you really want the gentoo you're > describing start another distro, and put it in there. I wish you the > greatest success. I just don't want it to be this distribution. Understandable Mark. Like I said I will have to seriously consider how my actions in creating easier to understand docs will affect the Gentoo community as a whole. > > I hope I didn't come across too strongly Robert. > > I too hope I didn't come across too strongly. I love this distribution, > and as a result I can be quite vehement in defending it. You see, while > there are lots of other choices for a distribution that has a user friendly > front end/installer/etc there are NO other distributions like gentoo. So > if it gets ruined I have no other choices. A choice I definitely would not want diminished. Both for you and me. I guess I have been assuming that Gentoo would stand it's ground and not lower the bar so to speak for those unable or unwilling to work at succeding in Linux. But based on what you have been saying Mark, this may be a bit naive of me. Even Gentoo might have to lower the bar some if thousands upon thousands of newbies tried to come into the fold. A lot of stuff to think about. Thanks for presenting what you did in a logical manner. I appreciate that very much. It's helped me to understand things that I previously had a tendency to label as guru hardheadedness or snobbishness. Carlos www.internetsuccess.ca -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
