This definition then raises the question why the removal of CO2 that has been 
put into the atmosphere as an unintended side effect of some other activity is 
the deliberate large-scale manipulation of the planetary environment.  Indeed, 
it could be seen as a deliberate effort to avoid the (albeit unintentional) 
large-scale manipulation of the environment.  The net result would be no change 
in the environment.

I think limiting geo-engineering to counteracting climate change is a bit too 
limiting, and I am sure if you were to ask John, you would find that this 
definition of the term geo-engineering was in the context of a particular study 
on fixing anthropogenic climate change.   Would it not be geo-engineering, if 
we foolishely decided to warm the planet?

By the way the definition of geo-engineering as deliberate activity goes back 
quite a bit further.  David Keith for example used in his Annual Review article 
many years earlier.

Since we now – for better or for worse –  have defined geo-engineering as a 
deliberate activity, we need to find a term for large scale human activities 
that unintentially, but substantively change Earth systems.  Geo-trashing?

Klaus

From: Alan Robock <rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu>
Date: Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 11:26 AM
To: "dhawk...@nrdc.org" <dhawk...@nrdc.org>, Klaus Lackner 
<klaus.lack...@asu.edu>, Peter Eisenberger <peter.eisenber...@gmail.com>
Cc: "christopherpreston1...@gmail.com" <christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>, 
geoengineering <geoengineering@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering

I agree.  The definition of geoengineering is “deliberate large-scale 
manipulation of the planetary environment to counteract anthropogenic climate 
change.”  This comes from: Shepherd, J. G. S. et al., 2009: Geoengineering the 
climate: Science, governance and uncertainty, RS Policy Document 10/09, 
(London: The Royal Society).

I completely agree that global warming is the problem we have to deal with, but 
calling it "geoengineering" confuses issues.  Clearly humans are causing global 
warming.  The latest survey shows 70% of Americans now accept this.  The 
question we are researching is to determine the potential benefits and risks of 
proposed geoengineering schemes so that policymakers can make informed 
decisions in the future if we they are tempted to implement different schemes.  
If it soon seems to be more dangerous than not doing it, that will put more 
pressure on mitigation.


Alan



Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor

  Editor, Reviews of Geophysics

Department of Environmental Sciences             Phone: +1-848-932-5751

Rutgers University                                 Fax: +1-732-932-8644

14 College Farm Road                  E-mail: 
rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu<mailto:rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu>

New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8551  USA     
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On 2/22/2018 2:13 PM, Hawkins, David wrote:

It is well said but I will observe that putting a geo-engineering label on what 
we are doing to ecosystems and the climate through human use of energy and 
agriculture is not in my opinion an effective communication technique to get 
people to have less visceral reactions to the topic of intentional 
geo-engineering.  We need to recognize that there are big differences in 
context in the two realms.

It is a strong point that a full evaluation of the risks of intentional 
geo-engineering should also consider the climate risks that are potentially 
altered by specific geo-engineering approaches.  But I think saying something 
like "we are already geo-engineering" will fall on deaf ears with the broader 
audience that is thinking about this subject.

David

________________________________
From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com> 
<geoengineering@googlegroups.com><mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com> on 
behalf of Peter Eisenberger 
<peter.eisenber...@gmail.com><mailto:peter.eisenber...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:47 PM
To: Klaus Lackner
Cc: christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>; 
geoengineering
Subject: Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering

Klaus
Well said !
Peter

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Klaus Lackner 
<klaus.lack...@asu.edu<mailto:klaus.lack...@asu.edu>> wrote:

I get it, and I get that intentions matter.  On the other hand, we are globally 
engineering and energy system (rather than a climate system).  It certainly has 
in aggregate geo-engineering scale, and also individual companies operate on 
truly global scale.  That said, this is a form of geo-engineering, which 
deliberately ignores the climate consequences.  So maybe we are not 
geo-engineering the Earth Climate, but we have created an energy flux that is 
about 4 orders of magnitude larger than “natural” energy fluxes flowing into 
the metabolism of members of a mammalian species.  We consume in the developed 
countries about 100 times as much energy per capita as our own metabolism 
consumes, and in part because of it, we are able to attain a population density 
that is hundred times higher than that of other mammals our size.  It also 
turns out that species of different size have comparable energy consumption per 
unit area of land.  We humans have engineered a system that provides a four 
orders of magnitude larger energy input.

So we are geo-engineering, and we ignore the consequences on the climate.



Klaus





From: <geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>> 
on behalf of Christopher Preston 
<christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: 
"christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>" 
<christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 7:53 PM
To: geoengineering 
<geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering



An introductory blog piece about why intention makes a difference in climate 
forcing.



https://plastocene.com/2018/02/20/philosopher-meets-meteorologist-to-talk-about-climate-engineering/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__plastocene.com_2018_02_20_philosopher-2Dmeets-2Dmeteorologist-2Dto-2Dtalk-2Dabout-2Dclimate-2Dengineering_&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=E150IbGClWBByEZcGhwmT4MnJzVRDjLk1MG6JV1G4xs&e=>

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