Agreed on two fronts, Klaus. Attempts at addressing a problem through CDR hardly fit the standard definitions of geoengineering. Maybe it is time to think of CDR as belonging in a completely different category.
Also agreed that 'geo-trashing' is a fine term for the global scale havoc we have caused :-) The term makes it clear that such accidental activities are quite different from any intentional ones undertaken at that scale. best, Christopher On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 12:57:55 PM UTC-7, klaus.lackner wrote: > > This definition then raises the question why the removal of CO2 that has > been put into the atmosphere as an unintended side effect of some other > activity is the deliberate large-scale manipulation of the planetary > environment. Indeed, it could be seen as a deliberate effort to avoid the > (albeit unintentional) large-scale manipulation of the environment. The > net result would be no change in the environment. > > > > I think limiting geo-engineering to counteracting climate change is a bit > too limiting, and I am sure if you were to ask John, you would find that > this definition of the term geo-engineering was in the context of a > particular study on fixing anthropogenic climate change. Would it not be > geo-engineering, if we foolishely decided to warm the planet? > > > > By the way the definition of geo-engineering as deliberate activity goes > back quite a bit further. David Keith for example used in his Annual > Review article many years earlier. > > > > Since we now – for better or for worse – have defined geo-engineering as > a deliberate activity, we need to find a term for large scale human > activities that unintentially, but substantively change Earth systems. > Geo-trashing? > > > > Klaus > > > > *From: *Alan Robock <[email protected] <javascript:>> > *Date: *Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 11:26 AM > *To: *"[email protected] <javascript:>" <[email protected] <javascript:>>, > Klaus Lackner <[email protected] <javascript:>>, Peter Eisenberger < > [email protected] <javascript:>> > *Cc: *"[email protected] <javascript:>" <[email protected] > <javascript:>>, geoengineering <[email protected] <javascript:>> > *Subject: *Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering > > > > I agree. The definition of geoengineering is “*deliberate *large-scale > manipulation of the planetary environment to counteract anthropogenic > climate change.” This comes from: Shepherd, J. G. S. et al., 2009: > Geoengineering the climate: Science, governance and uncertainty, RS Policy > Document 10/09, (London: The Royal Society). > > I completely agree that global warming is the problem we have to deal > with, but calling it "geoengineering" confuses issues. Clearly humans are > causing global warming. The latest survey shows 70% of Americans now > accept this. The question we are researching is to determine the potential > benefits and risks of proposed geoengineering schemes so that policymakers > can make informed decisions in the future if we they are tempted to > implement different schemes. If it soon seems to be more dangerous than > not doing it, that will put more pressure on mitigation. > > Alan > > > > Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor > > Editor, Reviews of Geophysics > > Department of Environmental Sciences Phone: +1-848-932-5751 > > Rutgers University Fax: +1-732-932-8644 > > 14 College Farm Road E-mail: [email protected] > <javascript:> > > New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8551 USA http://envsci.rutgers.edu/~robock > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__envsci.rutgers.edu_-7Erobock&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=2mN2kjv854nKCR14t00e-LpA4XUSv8Tk30DpvWjIu5Q&e=> > > ☮ http://twitter.com/AlanRobock > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_AlanRobock&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=yfcRWSipQVuUyIhr_lyGcig2kRCL7XTjqlPmhf9TAKs&e=> > 2017 Nobel Peace Prize to ICAN! > > Watch my 18 min TEDx talk at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsrEk1oZ-54 > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DqsrEk1oZ-2D54&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=cPzcBQ-3JXFCqefety8Rfnyr797o0UEDTZLAtV4YHkI&e=> > > On 2/22/2018 2:13 PM, Hawkins, David wrote: > > It is well said but I will observe that putting a geo-engineering label on > what we are doing to ecosystems and the climate through human use of energy > and agriculture is not in my opinion an effective communication technique > to get people to have less visceral reactions to the topic of > intentional geo-engineering. We need to recognize that there are big > differences in context in the two realms. > > It is a strong point that a full evaluation of the risks of intentional > geo-engineering should also consider the climate risks that are potentially > altered by specific geo-engineering approaches. But I think saying > something like "we are already geo-engineering" will fall on deaf ears with > the broader audience that is thinking about this subject. > > David > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* [email protected] <javascript:> > <[email protected]> <javascript:> on behalf of Peter > Eisenberger <[email protected]> <javascript:> > *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:47 PM > *To:* Klaus Lackner > *Cc:* [email protected] <javascript:>; geoengineering > *Subject:* Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering > > > > Klaus > > Well said ! > > Peter > > > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Klaus Lackner <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > > I get it, and I get that intentions matter. On the other hand, we are > globally engineering and energy system (rather than a climate system). It > certainly has in aggregate geo-engineering scale, and also individual > companies operate on truly global scale. That said, this is a form of > geo-engineering, which deliberately ignores the climate consequences. So > maybe we are not geo-engineering the Earth Climate, but we have created an > energy flux that is about 4 orders of magnitude larger than “natural” > energy fluxes flowing into the metabolism of members of a mammalian > species. We consume in the developed countries about 100 times as much > energy per capita as our own metabolism consumes, and in part because of > it, we are able to attain a population density that is hundred times higher > than that of other mammals our size. It also turns out that species of > different size have comparable energy consumption per unit area of land. > We humans have engineered a system that provides a four orders of magnitude > larger energy input. > > > So we are geo-engineering, and we ignore the consequences on the climate. > > > > Klaus > > > > > > *From: *<[email protected] <javascript:>> on behalf of > Christopher Preston <[email protected] <javascript:>> > *Reply-To: *"[email protected] <javascript:>" < > [email protected] <javascript:>> > *Date: *Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 7:53 PM > *To: *geoengineering <[email protected] <javascript:>> > *Subject: *[geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering > > > > An introductory blog piece about why intention makes a difference in > climate forcing. > > > > > https://plastocene.com/2018/02/20/philosopher-meets-meteorologist-to-talk-about-climate-engineering/ > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__plastocene.com_2018_02_20_philosopher-2Dmeets-2Dmeteorologist-2Dto-2Dtalk-2Dabout-2Dclimate-2Dengineering_&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=E150IbGClWBByEZcGhwmT4MnJzVRDjLk1MG6JV1G4xs&e=> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <javascript:>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering > 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