Agreed on two fronts, Klaus.

Attempts at addressing a problem through CDR hardly fit the standard 
definitions of geoengineering.  Maybe it is time to think of CDR as 
belonging in a completely different category.

Also agreed that 'geo-trashing' is a fine term for the global scale havoc 
we have caused :-)     The term makes it clear that such accidental 
activities are quite different from any intentional ones undertaken at that 
scale.

best, Christopher 

On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 12:57:55 PM UTC-7, klaus.lackner wrote:
>
> This definition then raises the question why the removal of CO2 that has 
> been put into the atmosphere as an unintended side effect of some other 
> activity is the deliberate large-scale manipulation of the planetary 
> environment.  Indeed, it could be seen as a deliberate effort to avoid the 
> (albeit unintentional) large-scale manipulation of the environment.  The 
> net result would be no change in the environment.
>
>  
>
> I think limiting geo-engineering to counteracting climate change is a bit 
> too limiting, and I am sure if you were to ask John, you would find that 
> this definition of the term geo-engineering was in the context of a 
> particular study on fixing anthropogenic climate change.   Would it not be 
> geo-engineering, if we foolishely decided to warm the planet?
>
>  
>
> By the way the definition of geo-engineering as deliberate activity goes 
> back quite a bit further.  David Keith for example used in his Annual 
> Review article many years earlier. 
>
>  
>
> Since we now – for better or for worse –  have defined geo-engineering as 
> a deliberate activity, we need to find a term for large scale human 
> activities that unintentially, but substantively change Earth systems.  
> Geo-trashing?
>
>  
>
> Klaus
>
>  
>
> *From: *Alan Robock <rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu <javascript:>>
> *Date: *Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 11:26 AM
> *To: *"dhaw...@nrdc.org <javascript:>" <dhaw...@nrdc.org <javascript:>>, 
> Klaus Lackner <klaus....@asu.edu <javascript:>>, Peter Eisenberger <
> peter.ei...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> *Cc: *"christopher...@gmail.com <javascript:>" <christopher...@gmail.com 
> <javascript:>>, geoengineering <geoengi...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>
> *Subject: *Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering
>
>  
>
> I agree.  The definition of geoengineering is “*deliberate *large-scale 
> manipulation of the planetary environment to counteract anthropogenic 
> climate change.”  This comes from: Shepherd, J. G. S. et al., 2009: 
> Geoengineering the climate: Science, governance and uncertainty, RS Policy 
> Document 10/09, (London: The Royal Society).
>
> I completely agree that global warming is the problem we have to deal 
> with, but calling it "geoengineering" confuses issues.  Clearly humans are 
> causing global warming.  The latest survey shows 70% of Americans now 
> accept this.  The question we are researching is to determine the potential 
> benefits and risks of proposed geoengineering schemes so that policymakers 
> can make informed decisions in the future if we they are tempted to 
> implement different schemes.  If it soon seems to be more dangerous than 
> not doing it, that will put more pressure on mitigation.
>
> Alan
>
>  
>
> Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor
>
>   Editor, Reviews of Geophysics
>
> Department of Environmental Sciences             Phone: +1-848-932-5751
>
> Rutgers University                                 Fax: +1-732-932-8644
>
> 14 College Farm Road                  E-mail: rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu 
> <javascript:>
>
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>
> On 2/22/2018 2:13 PM, Hawkins, David wrote:
>
> It is well said but I will observe that putting a geo-engineering label on 
> what we are doing to ecosystems and the climate through human use of energy 
> and agriculture is not in my opinion an effective communication technique 
> to get people to have less visceral reactions to the topic of 
> intentional geo-engineering.  We need to recognize that there are big 
> differences in context in the two realms.
>
> It is a strong point that a full evaluation of the risks of intentional 
> geo-engineering should also consider the climate risks that are potentially 
> altered by specific geo-engineering approaches.  But I think saying 
> something like "we are already geo-engineering" will fall on deaf ears with 
> the broader audience that is thinking about this subject.
>
> David
>
>  
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* geoengineering@googlegroups.com <javascript:> 
> <geoengineering@googlegroups.com> <javascript:> on behalf of Peter 
> Eisenberger <peter.eisenber...@gmail.com> <javascript:>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:47 PM
> *To:* Klaus Lackner
> *Cc:* christopherpreston1...@gmail.com <javascript:>; geoengineering
> *Subject:* Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering 
>
>  
>
> Klaus  
>
> Well said ! 
>
> Peter 
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Klaus Lackner <klaus.lack...@asu.edu 
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
> I get it, and I get that intentions matter.  On the other hand, we are 
> globally engineering and energy system (rather than a climate system).  It 
> certainly has in aggregate geo-engineering scale, and also individual 
> companies operate on truly global scale.  That said, this is a form of 
> geo-engineering, which deliberately ignores the climate consequences.  So 
> maybe we are not geo-engineering the Earth Climate, but we have created an 
> energy flux that is about 4 orders of magnitude larger than “natural” 
> energy fluxes flowing into the metabolism of members of a mammalian 
> species.  We consume in the developed countries about 100 times as much 
> energy per capita as our own metabolism consumes, and in part because of 
> it, we are able to attain a population density that is hundred times higher 
> than that of other mammals our size.  It also turns out that species of 
> different size have comparable energy consumption per unit area of land.  
> We humans have engineered a system that provides a four orders of magnitude 
> larger energy input.
>
>
> So we are geo-engineering, and we ignore the consequences on the climate. 
>
>  
>
> Klaus
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From: *<geoengineering@googlegroups.com <javascript:>> on behalf of 
> Christopher Preston <christopherpreston1...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> *Reply-To: *"christopherpreston1...@gmail.com <javascript:>" <
> christopherpreston1...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> *Date: *Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 7:53 PM
> *To: *geoengineering <geoengineering@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>
> *Subject: *[geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering
>
>  
>
> An introductory blog piece about why intention makes a difference in 
> climate forcing. 
>
>  
>
>
> https://plastocene.com/2018/02/20/philosopher-meets-meteorologist-to-talk-about-climate-engineering/
>  
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