For what it is worth I just use the term 'climate technologies' to cover all technologies that are likely to have some effect on climate.
That includes renewables, biofuels, carbon trading, carbon prices, geoengineering, CCS, Carbon removal, Coal burning and so on. Any such tech system is likely to be classifiable as "human activities that unintentionally, but substantively change Earth systems" or social systems - that's just the nature of complex earth and social systems. This does not mean that everything is equally bad, but it is intended to remind people that any system, whether it is supposedly beneficial or not, can have unintended consequences. And this, somehow, should be factored into its analysis and hype. jon ________________________________________ From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com <geoengineering@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Klaus Lackner <klaus.lack...@asu.edu> Sent: Friday, 23 February 2018 6:57 AM To: Alan Robock; dhawk...@nrdc.org; peter.eisenber...@gmail.com Cc: christopherpreston1...@gmail.com; geoengineering Subject: Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering This definition then raises the question why the removal of CO2 that has been put into the atmosphere as an unintended side effect of some other activity is the deliberate large-scale manipulation of the planetary environment. Indeed, it could be seen as a deliberate effort to avoid the (albeit unintentional) large-scale manipulation of the environment. The net result would be no change in the environment. I think limiting geo-engineering to counteracting climate change is a bit too limiting, and I am sure if you were to ask John, you would find that this definition of the term geo-engineering was in the context of a particular study on fixing anthropogenic climate change. Would it not be geo-engineering, if we foolishely decided to warm the planet? By the way the definition of geo-engineering as deliberate activity goes back quite a bit further. David Keith for example used in his Annual Review article many years earlier. Since we now – for better or for worse – have defined geo-engineering as a deliberate activity, we need to find a term for large scale human activities that unintentially, but substantively change Earth systems. Geo-trashing? Klaus From: Alan Robock <rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu> Date: Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 11:26 AM To: "dhawk...@nrdc.org" <dhawk...@nrdc.org>, Klaus Lackner <klaus.lack...@asu.edu>, Peter Eisenberger <peter.eisenber...@gmail.com> Cc: "christopherpreston1...@gmail.com" <christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>, geoengineering <geoengineering@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering I agree. The definition of geoengineering is “deliberate large-scale manipulation of the planetary environment to counteract anthropogenic climate change.” This comes from: Shepherd, J. G. S. et al., 2009: Geoengineering the climate: Science, governance and uncertainty, RS Policy Document 10/09, (London: The Royal Society). I completely agree that global warming is the problem we have to deal with, but calling it "geoengineering" confuses issues. Clearly humans are causing global warming. The latest survey shows 70% of Americans now accept this. The question we are researching is to determine the potential benefits and risks of proposed geoengineering schemes so that policymakers can make informed decisions in the future if we they are tempted to implement different schemes. If it soon seems to be more dangerous than not doing it, that will put more pressure on mitigation. Alan Alan Robock, Distinguished Professor Editor, Reviews of Geophysics Department of Environmental Sciences Phone: +1-848-932-5751 Rutgers University Fax: +1-732-932-8644 14 College Farm Road E-mail: rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu<mailto:rob...@envsci.rutgers.edu> New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8551 USA http://envsci.rutgers.edu/~robock<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__envsci.rutgers.edu_-7Erobock&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=2mN2kjv854nKCR14t00e-LpA4XUSv8Tk30DpvWjIu5Q&e=> ☮ http://twitter.com/AlanRobock<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_AlanRobock&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=yfcRWSipQVuUyIhr_lyGcig2kRCL7XTjqlPmhf9TAKs&e=> 2017 Nobel Peace Prize to ICAN! Watch my 18 min TEDx talk at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsrEk1oZ-54<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DqsrEk1oZ-2D54&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=cPzcBQ-3JXFCqefety8Rfnyr797o0UEDTZLAtV4YHkI&e=> On 2/22/2018 2:13 PM, Hawkins, David wrote: It is well said but I will observe that putting a geo-engineering label on what we are doing to ecosystems and the climate through human use of energy and agriculture is not in my opinion an effective communication technique to get people to have less visceral reactions to the topic of intentional geo-engineering. We need to recognize that there are big differences in context in the two realms. It is a strong point that a full evaluation of the risks of intentional geo-engineering should also consider the climate risks that are potentially altered by specific geo-engineering approaches. But I think saying something like "we are already geo-engineering" will fall on deaf ears with the broader audience that is thinking about this subject. David ________________________________ From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com> <geoengineering@googlegroups.com><mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Peter Eisenberger <peter.eisenber...@gmail.com><mailto:peter.eisenber...@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:47 PM To: Klaus Lackner Cc: christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>; geoengineering Subject: Re: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering Klaus Well said ! Peter On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Klaus Lackner <klaus.lack...@asu.edu<mailto:klaus.lack...@asu.edu>> wrote: I get it, and I get that intentions matter. On the other hand, we are globally engineering and energy system (rather than a climate system). It certainly has in aggregate geo-engineering scale, and also individual companies operate on truly global scale. That said, this is a form of geo-engineering, which deliberately ignores the climate consequences. So maybe we are not geo-engineering the Earth Climate, but we have created an energy flux that is about 4 orders of magnitude larger than “natural” energy fluxes flowing into the metabolism of members of a mammalian species. We consume in the developed countries about 100 times as much energy per capita as our own metabolism consumes, and in part because of it, we are able to attain a population density that is hundred times higher than that of other mammals our size. It also turns out that species of different size have comparable energy consumption per unit area of land. We humans have engineered a system that provides a four orders of magnitude larger energy input. So we are geo-engineering, and we ignore the consequences on the climate. Klaus From: <geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Christopher Preston <christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>> Reply-To: "christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>" <christopherpreston1...@gmail.com<mailto:christopherpreston1...@gmail.com>> Date: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 at 7:53 PM To: geoengineering <geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>> Subject: [geo] Intention matters in Climate Engineering An introductory blog piece about why intention makes a difference in climate forcing. https://plastocene.com/2018/02/20/philosopher-meets-meteorologist-to-talk-about-climate-engineering/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__plastocene.com_2018_02_20_philosopher-2Dmeets-2Dmeteorologist-2Dto-2Dtalk-2Dabout-2Dclimate-2Dengineering_&d=DwMDaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=hFjA8A8KwwhQx5qilpfIleTL0XYVr_fckT8DnwIEWlQ&m=PWpcdRSwEHphT3haFf-UFsCRoGl8q6764HIH_ragQqU&s=E150IbGClWBByEZcGhwmT4MnJzVRDjLk1MG6JV1G4xs&e=> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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