Thanks for making this conversation so interesting ;) To come back on Kate's comment: Recently I had a discussion with some game designers (about "gamification" of the use of public transportation). Their main point was the following: if you start giving some incentives for some stuff that people could do by themselves, you transform a task into a quest for the incentive and you destroy self motivation. The higher the incentive, the more destructive. After that, people will expect an incentive to do it again. Basically, once you started giving some incentives, you might have to maintain them for ever. When it's badges, it's not such a big deal, but when it comes to real things, it can become much more difficult to deal with. (You have similar arguments/discussion in the children education literature)
This vision/explanation is a bit extrem but it's important to know this kind of side effect of "incentivisation" (which is one of the important element of "gamification" that is not known enough). Many of the recent game designs since the first online muti-player games rely on the sense of community and self-organization. So it comes close to what Aaron said. We fall back on another buzzword: community management. There's a lot of that in order to have initiative like OSM (and open source software) to thrive and be fun. (As for projections, Aaron... I still have difficulties to see them as a game. :p) Steph On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Aaron Straup Cope < [email protected]> wrote: > There was an expression that got floated around Flickr a lot about > building "small tools for self-organization". > > Which meant that you designed something with an actual goal or function in > mind but whose functional "fence posts" where only high enough to channel > the behaviour but no so high that they couldn't be easily jumped. > > This happened all the time. People build elaborate "games" on top of > tagging and groups. Given any system that is both easy and fun (or reward > enough) they will build a "game" around it because it makes life a little > bit better. > > Denis Crowley's history of the badges at 4sq remains one of the best > examples of this. To hear the story the badges started as a funny-haha > thing and it was the users themselves who turned it into a "game". > > The problem is that geo has always been a game; if map projections aren't > a game then I no longer know how to make sense of the world. > > It's not clear to me whether we're talking about play or just a TO DO list > (tasks) dressed up as a game. > > It seems like a tricky road for GIS in the abstract, and OSM specifically, > to go down because both are (mostly) concerned with a > more-accurate-than-not ground truth. That will out of necessity make for > some pretty cerebral games. > > Tweaking the OSM tagging system to show the LHC at CERN is awesome > (really) but the project becomes something else entirely if everyone uses > it as a continual partial mood-ring. > > Rather than thinking about "gamifying" geo maybe it's more useful just to > think about specific goals with clear reasoning and simple, elegant > interfaces for accomplishing them. > > Which sounds a lot like... > > Cheers, > > > > > On 9/25/12 3:07 AM, Stefan Keller wrote: > >> Anselm, >> >> I think one should differenciate between "Serious Games" and "Gamified >> Applications". >> >> You are describing educational games aka "Serious Games" (and >> http://lemonopoly.org is actually cool!) - and I'm more after making >> repetitive (but high level) tasks inside a broader application more >> fun. In the latter there's a grey zone to pure entertainment, like >> "play as you commute" or when you are idle, while in fact you are >> contributing to capturing and quality checking of map data. >> >> Yours, S. >> >> >> >> 2012/9/25 Anselm Hook <[email protected]>: >> >>> Echoing Kevin: 'gamification' doesn't really make sense to me; it >>> doesn't capture the essence of what is going on - it's not an awful >>> term but it is kind of like a bubble gum theory - it doesn't explain >>> it just recasts in new language. >>> >>> The term I like more is 'cartoonification' : taking the complexity of >>> the world and translating into something that anybody can understand. >>> People are pretty busy and don't really have time to understand >>> complex ideas in every domain - games are a way to connect goals to >>> primal human instincts... and well I dunno.. more fun. >>> >>> Recently my team launched an app called Dekko - http://dekko.co that >>> explores the technical requirements around this; we're doing "strong >>> AR" where we tightly bind augmented information on top of the real >>> world by building a 3d point cloud in real time that you can overlay >>> data on. It could be used for those kinds of apps ( as the technology >>> improves ). >>> >>> For example some day (as I've mentioned ad nauseum) I really want to >>> try build a watershed modeler where you can hold up AR glasses and >>> look around you and see nearby watersheds and cartoonified versions of >>> some of the wildlife. I was thinking fishes would be easiest. Each >>> fish would be a proxy stand in for say 10000 fish and it's health and >>> demeanor would hint at the underlying data. The idea then would be to >>> try daylight streams, remove dams or tires and garbage, remove >>> concrete channels etc - and otheriwse heal streams. The fishes would >>> become your friends and thank you as the river system health >>> improved... (or die horrible deaths). >>> >>> Also, personally my friend Chach and I recently did >>> http://lemonopoly.org which is a slow game - designed to be played out >>> over a period of a decade or so. It is an urban agriculture focused >>> experience where the win condition is "to make the Bay Area lemon >>> independent". There are viruses affecting lemon trees and other >>> concerns which help connect a fun light game experience to something >>> that has real meaning. >>> >>> I usually have 3 critieria for work: 1) It should be fun to do 2) It >>> should cover its own costs 3) It should have meaning. I like the idea >>> of connecting games to the real world because the real world is >>> awesome and I don't really like being inside very much anyway; so >>> helping other people value the outside too I figure would make more >>> outside exist. >>> >>> There's a huge community of experience designers in the bay area who >>> do stuff like that - JTTEON is an amazing example of this. Has totally >>> changed how I see city streets. There's also the Come Out and Play >>> festival going on soon... http://comeoutandplaysf.org/ ... and too >>> much other stuff to scribble in the margins of this brief note... >>> >>> a >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Eric Wolf <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> The USGS National Map Corps ( http://nationalmap.gov/** >>>> TheNationalMapCorps/ <http://nationalmap.gov/TheNationalMapCorps/> ) >>>> is hoping to use game-like concepts in the future. There is a stated >>>> intent >>>> to engage Scouts, 4H and schools. Because the program only works on a >>>> small >>>> set of features, it's easier to guide people towards quality rather than >>>> quantity. The USGS is specifically trying to create program that is >>>> sustainable and ensures completeness. There will be an "editorial" level >>>> called Adopt-a-Quad which is designed to encourage quality review. The >>>> great >>>> thing about something like a scout badge is that every year there are >>>> new >>>> scouts reaching the level where they want to acquire the badge >>>> (sustainable). By "gamifying" the Adopt-a-Quad, the more remote areas >>>> stand >>>> a better change of being mapped (completeness). >>>> >>>> -Eric Wolf >>>> (Speaking unofficially) >>>> >>>> P.S. The USGS is still working on the Open File Report on Phase 2 of the >>>> program that includes data relating quantity and quality. Watch for >>>> those >>>> publications soon. >>>> >>>> -=--=---=----=----=---=--=-=--**=---=----=---=--=-=- >>>> Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Stefan Keller <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Recently I stumbled upon Gamification. Seems to be a hype now. >>>>> Does anybody have experience with (or ideas about) "Gamification of >>>>> GIS" and/or "Gamification of OpenStreetMap"? >>>>> >>>>> Yours, Stefan >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>> Geowanking mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://geowanking.org/mailman/**listinfo/geowanking_**geowanking.org<http://geowanking.org/mailman/listinfo/geowanking_geowanking.org> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> Geowanking mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://geowanking.org/mailman/**listinfo/geowanking_**geowanking.org<http://geowanking.org/mailman/listinfo/geowanking_geowanking.org> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> @anselm 415 215 4856 http://twitter.com/anselm >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Geowanking mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://geowanking.org/mailman/**listinfo/geowanking_**geowanking.org<http://geowanking.org/mailman/listinfo/geowanking_geowanking.org> >>> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Geowanking mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://geowanking.org/mailman/**listinfo/geowanking_**geowanking.org<http://geowanking.org/mailman/listinfo/geowanking_geowanking.org> >> >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > Geowanking mailing list > [email protected] > http://geowanking.org/mailman/**listinfo/geowanking_**geowanking.org<http://geowanking.org/mailman/listinfo/geowanking_geowanking.org> > -- Stéphane Guidoin Director, Transportation Open North 514-862-0084 http://opennorth.ca Twitter: @opennorth / @hoedic
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