So whether or not offensive should be the standard we use depends on how we want to define offensive. Something can be counter-productive or out-of-line without having caused anyone personal offense. I don't believe that is the standard we want to use for discussion. I think respectful would be a better word, but that can still be interpreted based on an individual's definitions of what is respectful to them.
I think we want group discussions to be effective and collaborative. While two people might be comfortable having a disagreement, and may be perfectly ok with how the disagreement is going, that doesn't mean it isn't making the tone uncomfortable for everyone else, or obstructing constructive discussion. What if a newer volunteer wants to disagree with someone on another issue, will they feel welcome or will they feel the need to brace for a response like this? (I'm sure there are also many long time contributors volunteers and employees alike that would avoid a discussion if they feel an aggressive response is what's in store). I also want to emphasize that my point is about what is appropriate for our group discussions. If you and I started talking about my cats, that would not be appropriate for a thread on Governance either, and of course it wouldn't have to be offensive or disrespectful in any way shape or form (and of course it would be incredibly adorable and aww-inducing!) to be inappropriate. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Ehsan Akhgari <[email protected]>wrote: > FWIW neither of Asa's emails came across as offensive to me, it was just a > misunderstanding. I thought he was making a point which he wasn't. No hard > feelings here! > > Cheers, > Ehsan > > > On 12/19/2013, 4:07 PM, Majken Connor wrote: > >> Asa, >> >> For the record I have no problem with your initial message that Ehsan >> replied to. It's how you handled Ehsan's replies. >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Asa Dotzler <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> On 12/19/13, 12:12 PM, Majken Connor wrote: >> >>> I don't think this sub-thread is appropriate for the list. Asa, if >>> you aren't sure an email is addressed to you, why not clarify off >>> list? Your response was incredibly defensive and didn't leave much >>> room for Ehsan to provide a collaborative response. Your words >>> come very close to "I am right and you are wrong." You focused on >>> how you thought Ehsan was wrong in his evaluation of your words, >>> and how your original statement was correct. A collaborative reply >>> - reframing your original point with the intent for other people >>> to understand it, not defend your original word choice - could >>> have gotten your point across just as well without focusing the >>> conversation on to you. >>> >> >> It doesn't bother me at all that this comes off as defensive. I was >> defending myself against a bogus charge. Why should I be dragged >> off-topic because someone wants to put words in my mouth or argue >> against points I've never made and don't intend to make. >> >> I introduced my concern -- that Mozillians in the West often drop in >> to discussions like this with little or no local context and propose >> that other Mozillians in other radically different areas of the >> world should "just do what we do in California and it'll all be >> great" as if it was all that simple and easy. I consider those >> kinds of naive suggestions unhelpful and in some cases even >> insulting to the people who have put in huge Mozilla efforts >> spanning years (a decade even) trying to figure out these radically >> different markets that don't behave at all like how most Western >> Mozillians expect. >> >> I think mine was a completely valid reply to that part of Chris' >> comments and as appropriate as any other comment in this discussion >> thread. If you or Ehsan would like to address my comments instead >> of the comments you imagine I'm making, I'm happy to engage but I am >> not at all interested in defending Mozilla Online's actions here, or >> even proposing alternative solutions, so I'm not going to be dragged >> into that conversation because Ehsan seems to want me there or can't >> see that I'm not going there. >> >> - A >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Asa Dotzler <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/19/13, 7:38 AM, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: >>> >>> On 12/18/2013, 11:49 PM, Asa Dotzler wrote: >>> >>> On 12/18/13, 8:35 PM, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: >>> >>> On 12/18/2013, 5:03 PM, Asa Dotzler wrote: >>> >>> On 12/17/13, 8:30 PM, Chris Peterson wrote: >>> > Instead Mozilla should shine light on these >>> companies' unscrupulous >>> > behavior and win users with respectful >>> privacy solutions. >>> >>> I think this could be an Western biased view. >>> Why do you believe that >>> Chinese users will be receptive to those kinds >>> of messages? My limited >>> experience suggests that, in general, they >>> won't be. >>> >>> >>> In that case Mozilla should do nothing. What you >>> said is not an >>> argument for fighting fire with fire. >>> >>> >>> Is this addressed to me? I did not make and do not >>> claim any such >>> argument or prescription. >>> >>> >>> You argued that Chris' point is coming from a western >>> point of view and won't work on Chinese users, and I >>> suggested that if that's true, then we should have done >>> nothing. >>> >>> >>> I made no other argument than calling Chris' approach naive. >>> If you'd like to engage me in a discussion of what options >>> there are besides "do nothing" and "fight fire with fire" we >>> can do that, but if you'll re-read what I wrote, you'll see >>> that I carefully stayed away from prescriptions because that >>> wasn't the point I thought most important. >>> >>> My post was intended to point out that the strategies we >>> employ in the West naively applied to China probably won't >>> work - and nothing more. >>> >>> - A >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> governance mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:governance@lists. >>> mozilla.org> >>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance >>> >>> >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ governance mailing list [email protected] https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
