yea i was refering to andre's stand only ..
in positive discrimination.... here the focus s "upper" castes who r
discrminated
in reservation the focus is SC/ST?OBCs who r discriminated
where will u stand?
i dont consider reservation as positive discrmantion. for me it s
democratisation and equal opportunities..
a castest "upper" caste d perceive it as discrmination.. so goes the
arguemtns of meritocracy of anti-reservationsists... and andre beteile. mn
srinivas, narayan murthy, etc
where do u stand?
On 3/24/08, C.K. Vishwanath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I don't support prof.andre beteille's stand on
> reservation.I just mentioned the usage of him.And he
> was against that durban conference as well.
> I wrote about this issue in frontier.Or else,you can
> get it from google.
> After all, are these upper castes getting reservations
> ?their privilege?what was the merit of 19th century
> upper caste students of madras presidency
> college(dalit daiary by chandraben prasad.)
>
> --- ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > for me, reservation and positive discrimination are
> > different...
> > when u repeatedly use the term "positive
> > discrimination" instead of
> > "reservation", i think, it s a politiacl statement
> > from a brahmincal stand
> > point... (and u belive that there is discrmination
> > against the "upper"
> > caste// then u have evry right to use it... but i
> > disagree....and everyone
> > knows andre betteile's stand on reservation to
> > Sc/sts/obcs)
> >
> > my prbolm is with the imagination "dalits are not
> > capable of "... they r
> > capable of any thing
> > the problm does not lies with them, but in the
> > structural inequalities
> > instead of addressing it the state/ngo/civil society
> > blame the marginallised
> > and make them convenient preys of "social Uplift"
> > ... this is no sense deny
> > the role of state or other machinaries, but the
> > frmwork they emply seem to
> > be problematic....which need to be chnged//
> > chitralekha case is a good
> > example...
> >
> >
> > On 3/23/08, C.K. Vishwanath
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Prof.andre beteile gave this coinage to indian
> > social
> > > thinking.
> > > --- venukm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Ranju,
> > > >
> > > > "Hegemonic imaginations of such schemes about
> > the
> > > > marginalized have to
> > > > be contested.
> > > >
> > > > There is absolutely no disagreement.
> > > >
> > > > <1."It won't be in the interests of dalits to
> > assume
> > > > that they can't
> > > > possibly flourish without it"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am afraid there is a little ambiguity
> > regarding
> > > > what is meant by
> > > > 'it'.
> > > > If 'it' means &includes
> > > > all those well intentioned interventions and
> > > > positive measures by an
> > > > inclusive State with a view to redeeming to
> > dalits
> > > > everything they had
> > > > long been forcibly deprived of,i will rather
> > > > maintain that their
> > > > interests will not be jeopardized by 'it'.
> > > > Because of the factors of voilent historical
> > > > deprivations against
> > > > them and the continuation of such social order
> > till
> > > > the present ,their
> > > > being
> > backward,socially,educationally,economically
> > > > and in many other
> > > > ways,
> > > > is far from just being someone's assemption.
> > > > As large sections of the population and in the
> > > > absence of some
> > > > measures of "positive discrimination", that they
> > are
> > > > not capable of
> > > > inching ahead to social ascendancy
> > > > is a truth independent of anybody's assumption.
> > > >
> > > > This does not mean (at least, in my reference)
> > that
> > > > the State or other
> > > > social actors should attempt to deny the dalits
> > the
> > > > right to have
> > > > say , or to air theie own visions of progress .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <2."Is there discrimination? How?"
> > > > This is a question which i wish to address only
> > in a
> > > > restricted
> > > > sense,in the context of the idea of "positive
> > > > discrimination".You will
> > > > agree, this is not a special coinage invented by
> > > > me.To my
> > > > understanding this just another expression to
> > > > signify the provision
> > > > for statutory reservation.I don't know whether
> > there
> > > > is essential
> > > > distinction between these concepts of "positive
> > > > discrimination" and
> > > > "reservation",for that matter.THese are seen
> > > > theoratically espoused by
> > > > the US and the Indain sysytems of governance
> > > > respectively ,purportedly
> > > > for achieving social parity.
> > > > Nevertheless ,there is one thing that
> > immediately
> > > > cathes our
> > > > attention.While in the White dominated West a
> > > > genuinely displayed and
> > > > transparent commitment in letter and spirirt to
> > such
> > > > legislations is
> > > > rather perceptible,the Brahmaical or
> > > > quasi-Brahmanical Indian State
> > > > is unfortunately unique in its equivocalism
> > > > ,abuse,and disrespect
> > > > toward its own constitution.As a result of this
> > > > ,reservation has
> > > > lately come to be viewed most skeptically. This
> > in
> > > > my opinion,is the
> > > > real danger.Perhaps this brand new
> > skepticism(shall
> > > > we call it 'post
> > > > modern' though it is hopelessly 'pre-modern' in
> > > > substance?) albeit in
> > > > differing degrees ,is shared by the elites of
> > all
> > > > castes.
> > > > Hence, though for other contexts i will have no
> > > > difficulty in
> > > > answering this query ("Is there discrimination?
> > > > "...in reservation)
> > > > in the negetive ,the particular context wants me
> > to
> > > > emphatically say
> > > > yes.
> > > > Reservation, i believe, is a form of positive
> > > > discriminatin;without
> > > > constitutionally implementing this in most
> > effective
> > > > ways the casteist
> > > > society as a whole,comprising all sections
> > including
> > > > the dalits may
> > > > neither understand what social justice is about
> > ,nor
> > > > will it care for
> > > > the less privilaged fellow humans.In this aspect
> > i
> > > > have no hesitation
> > > > to suggest that the society as a whole
> > ,including
> > > > the UCs & BCs, men
> > > > &women cutting across every other distinctive
> > > > identity is more or less
> > > > at ease with its Brahmanical mode;this is
> > especially
> > > > so ,thanks to the
> > > > conspicuous absence of painstaking and
> > enlightened
> > > > efforts by the
> > > > governing (constitutional) set up in
> > re-orienting
> > > > the priorities.
> > > > Hence , I only wish to reiterate here the remedy
> > > > proposed by
> > > > Dr.Ambedkar for helping everybody to refine and
> > > > strengthen :EDUCATE,AGITATE,ORGANIZE.
> > > > In carrying these out to their truly devastating
> > > > potentials, dalits
> > > > will surely be both the insiders and outsiders
> > at
> > > > the same time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > With regards ,
> > > > K.M.Venu
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 22, 7:35 am, venukm
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Both agree and disagree with Ranju's points;
> > Hope
> > > > I may be able to
> > > > > come back.
> > > > > Venu.K.M
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 21, 12:24 pm, "Ranjit Ranjit"
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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