I read much more talkings about this as same issue. At last the Ranjus
stand and venu's stand i this.
it is clearly geting thes picture.... fundementel ambedkar and
experimental ambedkar... i think the .... who were following
fundemental ambedkar.... i think they are actually grand narative
perspecters... we will be consiering for new manner of experimental
ambedkar..... as the same mayavathi and others doing the
stad...
On Mar 22, 8:29 pm, venukm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Ranju,
>
> "Hegemonic imaginations of such schemes about the marginalized have to
> be contested.
>
> There is absolutely no disagreement.
>
> <1."It won't be in the interests of dalits to assume that they can't
> possibly flourish without it"
>
> I am afraid there is a little ambiguity regarding what is meant by
> 'it'.
> If 'it' means &includes
> all those well intentioned interventions and positive measures by an
> inclusive State with a view to redeeming to dalits everything they had
> long been forcibly deprived of,i will rather maintain that their
> interests will not be jeopardized by 'it'.
> Because of the factors of voilent historical deprivations against
> them and the continuation of such social order till the present ,their
> being backward,socially,educationally,economically and in many other
> ways,
> is far from just being someone's assemption.
> As large sections of the population and in the absence of some
> measures of "positive discrimination", that they are not capable of
> inching ahead to social ascendancy
> is a truth independent of anybody's assumption.
>
> This does not mean (at least, in my reference) that the State or other
> social actors should attempt to deny the dalits the right to have
> say , or to air theie own visions of progress .
>
> <2."Is there discrimination? How?"
> This is a question which i wish to address only in a restricted
> sense,in the context of the idea of "positive discrimination".You will
> agree, this is not a special coinage invented by me.To my
> understanding this just another expression to signify the provision
> for statutory reservation.I don't know whether there is essential
> distinction between these concepts of "positive discrimination" and
> "reservation",for that matter.THese are seen theoratically espoused by
> the US and the Indain sysytems of governance respectively ,purportedly
> for achieving social parity.
> Nevertheless ,there is one thing that immediately cathes our
> attention.While in the White dominated West a genuinely displayed and
> transparent commitment in letter and spirirt to such legislations is
> rather perceptible,the Brahmaical or quasi-Brahmanical Indian State
> is unfortunately unique in its equivocalism ,abuse,and disrespect
> toward its own constitution.As a result of this ,reservation has
> lately come to be viewed most skeptically. This in my opinion,is the
> real danger.Perhaps this brand new skepticism(shall we call it 'post
> modern' though it is hopelessly 'pre-modern' in substance?) albeit in
> differing degrees ,is shared by the elites of all castes.
> Hence, though for other contexts i will have no difficulty in
> answering this query ("Is there discrimination? "...in reservation)
> in the negetive ,the particular context wants me to emphatically say
> yes.
> Reservation, i believe, is a form of positive discriminatin;without
> constitutionally implementing this in most effective ways the casteist
> society as a whole,comprising all sections including the dalits may
> neither understand what social justice is about ,nor will it care for
> the less privilaged fellow humans.In this aspect i have no hesitation
> to suggest that the society as a whole ,including the UCs & BCs, men
> &women cutting across every other distinctive identity is more or less
> at ease with its Brahmanical mode;this is especially so ,thanks to the
> conspicuous absence of painstaking and enlightened efforts by the
> governing (constitutional) set up in re-orienting the priorities.
> Hence , I only wish to reiterate here the remedy proposed by
> Dr.Ambedkar for helping everybody to refine and
> strengthen :EDUCATE,AGITATE,ORGANIZE.
> In carrying these out to their truly devastating potentials, dalits
> will surely be both the insiders and outsiders at the same time.
>
> With regards ,
> K.M.Venu
>
> On Mar 22, 7:35 am, venukm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Both agree and disagree with Ranju's points; Hope I may be able to
> > come back.
> > Venu.K.M
>
> > On Mar 21, 12:24 pm, "Ranjit Ranjit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > *This means that in the absence of well- intentioned govtal
> > > > interventions and measures of positive discrimination, dalits as a
> > > > disprevileged population group might not be able to go; they can't
> > > > possibly flourish with the strength of "own cultural and other
> > > > capitals".The chances to have them had long been deprived, and they
> > > > are continuing to be deprived in many ways.*
>
> > > a quick reply to this:
>
> > > 1) need for wellfare activites cant be undermined; but at the same time
> > > the
> > > hegemonic imaginations of such schemes abt the marginalised has to be
> > > contestd (chitralekha does that)
>
> > > 2) it wont be in the interst of dalits to assume that they cant possible
> > > flourish without it.
> > > the web of strategic negotiations and the "in and out" approach, that is
> > > wht dalits adopt to deal with this situations. it has its own failures as
> > > well as victories.
>
> > > 3) so denying the agency to dalts and assuming that without civil
> > > soceity/state/NGO interventions they wont be in a position to assert will
> > > be
> > > a wrong analysis.. it simply th e way state, NGOs and various religious
> > > discourses (hindu/christian) trie to coopt dalits ...
> > > complexitites involved has to be seen..
> > > 4) absence of a dalits male driver in the indcates the operation of caste
> > > in
> > > that space and time
> > > entry of dalit woman with the support of the state (see similar
> > > reservation
> > > debate also) unsettles the sptail pwor dynamics and in order to restore it
> > > they burtn the auto.. the state's role ends there and the caste soceity
> > > takes over... the respnse of woman leaders (streevedi or vanitha commns
> > > etc
> > > etc) r frmed within the commenscal imaginiatoins and it s deemd to be
> > > addrd
> > > only through statist intervention where the "subject" was askd to behave
> > > properly to according to the space and time...its in these web of
> > > structural
> > > complxties lie s the problem perhaps
> > > wht i mean to say is that whtr in the case of chitralekha, chengara,
> > > muthanga etc the role of the people and their agency in negotiating with
> > > these hegeminc structures should be addressed and respcted.. though with
> > > its
> > > own problms ...
>
> > > and for me positive discrimination has a wrong connotation
> > > after all whom are u positively discriminating? is there discrimination?
> > > how?
> > > theoretically all selection precesses involes discrimination/rejection...
> > > are we using it this sense? i dont think so....- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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