Don't think that anyone here is talking about 'rushing' anything. Neither in
this discussion, or the similar ones, that have been on the list for ever so
long, when comes to the browse mode rewrite.
There is a couple of things, that I am sure, we ALL will agree on. 1st, we
don't want GW to rush anything out the door, before it is solidly ready.
2nd, we don't want to pay for any half-done job; and so appriciate the fact
that several of the upgrades are being released as free-of-charge ones. 3rd,
we still want, and need, well even should have our rights in expecting, that
Window-Eyes will stay up-to-date, and being reliable.
What I think many a user is wondering, is how come that the browse mode has
not been updated, since it has been promised for a long time, and the need
for an update is getting rather obvious for those of us who do more like
80-plus percent of our computing on the net these days. The question, I
think, even becomes all the more obvious, due to the fact of GW telling us
over and over again, how closely they are working with companies like
Microsoft. OK, Microsoft is not liable for each and every one of the
billions of web sites out there, neither are any screen reader manufacturer
in full control of new html or the like standards. Yet, since the other
manufacturers have managed to keep their web-utility updated, and hence to
some extend outrange GW's product as per date, it is timely to ask what is
so complicated that GW is not willing to let out the door any updates. They
started, true enough, to talk about a rewrite back when WE7 was released. It
being two or three years ago, still it has been a good amount of time, to do
such a rewrite. Maybe they are working on it. We don't know, as they have
been little willing to come out yet, with any information as to what the
progress on the matter is. And, I guess, somehow that even gears up some of
the frustration, of many a user; since it easily could tell a story about
the GW staff not even looking at the matter. Yet, I am sure they are.
Seems - based on some earlier comments from that corner - that they have had
a challenge in knowing exactly how to handle certain parts of the matter.
Even the most loyal user of WE, will have to agree, that few things in the
computer world changes more rapidly, and frequently, than the internet. And
many a user will agree, that browse mode is long time overdue. None of this
conflicts with the fact, that we want a solid, fully working, stabil,
well-tested and reliable product. It simply just means, that with a browse
mode, that skips a third of the links, onclicks, buttons and so forth on web
pages, we no longer can claim WE to be the most stabil and reliable product
on the market. Be it as stabil as it wants, in Office 2010, Itunes, Vista or
whatever - if it cannot read the webpages correctly and reliably, I do claim
a screen reader is not much for a market leader these days.
Now, of course, many users will pop in here, claiming they have no trouble
in browsing the web. To all of those, let me express my heartfelt
congratulations. Long as the screen reader does what you expect, and is
reliable in its functionality, I really say you are lucky, and that is
great. On the other hand, too many a message on this list, has denoted the
fact, there is enough of examples of websites, that are totally - or at
least close thereto - useless with Window-Eyes. Give you but one example,
which a ton of people will be familiar with, and which was pointed out
earlier in this thread. If you try to send money, for instance pay for an
EBay winning, using Paypal. OK, the webpage itself might read kind of well
enough. But if you tab through the page, hoping for a place where it says
things like 'confirm payment', or 'pay now'; you soon will be disappointed.
The correct place to hit your Enter-key, would be where it simply says
'button'. Poof! How are we to know, that 'button' means 'confirm payment',
and not 'go and have a cup of chocolate'. (smiile) It would be easy enough
to give a long line of examples of websites, that gives similar 'half-way'
informations. Let's now add on all the websites that do not even read at
all, or at least that brokenly that you would have been doing better never
visiting that site. Go then ahead, talking about the fact of Window-Eyes
hanging every ten time, you open a web page, causing whatever for a problem
of the user you might experience. Well, go on with the list, and you will
see, why a lot of people ask things to be fixed. We don't want it to be
rushed, unstabil or untested; we want it to be FIXED - that is all.
If there was no fix around, well by then, GW or whoever go ahead and tell us
that it will be fixed in the future. Go on, sing that song, till our ears
fall off, or till Eloquence knows the phrase well enough to studder it out
everytime browse mode hangs on our computer. The reality though, is that
there is some kind of fix around. And that is called: USE ANOTHER SCREEN
READER FOR YOUR BROWSING SESSIONS... Surely, that is not what GW wants us to
do, and I assure you, noone of the thousands of users around the globe wants
to play-and-fool around with more than one screen reader at a time either.
That is EXACTLY why its been stressed over and over again, the need for an
update. And since other manufacturers have been able to solve the
challenges - at least to some better degree than what GW can show up at the
moment - I really think the users are in their right, of asking what is so
complicated that GW cannot solve it at the moment.
Oh yes, we have heard about the new html standard that is going to come
around. Well, let me ask you guys: When Office 2007 came out, did GW sit
down and tell their users that 'we will get Office support running, once
Office 2010 is out'? Or, did they leave their customers behind, when Windows
7 was released, simply because Windows 8 is already on the engineers' slate?
NO! In all these cases, GW proudly anounced to the public, that they were
apparently the very first ones on the market, to have their users
up-to-date, fully in line with the current development on the market. My
point here is, why would we ever sit back and wait for some kind of new
standard to pop out, before an update of the browse mode? When the new
standard is released, there is simply just plans for a totally new version
of the standard, that will keep the engineers employed. That is business,
and it is reality. I really have a hard time, figuring when would be the
perfect time to release the new browse mode. There simply never will be. But
that doesn't say, that the users might be lacking, all the time you don't
get anything out the door. Don't please, GW staff, jump in here, telling the
good old story about the priorities. We know that one, and true some
priorities might be important. It is - for one thing - good that you let out
the version that supports Windows7, since it is really hard to find a new
computer these days with anything but that OS. And, the person that is
employed in a big company that has the bigg money to install the newest
Office suite on all their computers; well that user is overly happy since
you let out a version of WE, supporting Office 2010. Yet, how many a user,
do you think, has the money to pop out buying the newest Office? Specially
so, since they could import their old Office suite under the newer Windows.
Now then, compare that number, with the thousands of users, that are using
the Internet each day - many times each day - and are fully depending on
that feature, so as to handle their day-today activities; or even make
themselves a living or job. I don't need to much fantacy, let alone much for
experience of life, to realize which number will be the highest. And, I
don't have any trouble at all, in relating with the many users who are
frustrated about an ever-ongoing broken browse mode. NO! It is not working.
I have to close and reopen webpages several times an hour, just because
Eloquence packs up his Window-Eyes suitcase, and goes for his many fancy
cruises out there on cyberspace; leaving me at home, with an ice cream in my
hand. Smile. And, don't tell me to use another voice like Dectalk please, as
the non-US Window-Eyes I am forced to use, hasn't had such capabilities
since version 7. Besides, I am about to claim that it is no matter of
Eloquence, rather a matter of Window-Eyes itself.
GW, what good is in a computer these days, if it cannot reliably go on the
internet. Which job, even in the biggest companies, will be all that solely
relying on support for the newest and fanciest version of Office or
whatever, that such things should down-prioritize the need for internet
support? Stabile internet support. Reliable internet support. Correct
internet support.
If GW really wants to keep their position as the market leader of the screen
reader comunity, and if they want to stand behind their frequently declaring
Window-Eyes to be the most 'rock solid' reader on the market - well in such
a case, they HAVE TO get browse mode fixed. OK, at the moment, people can
somehow live with it. At the moment, people will find Window-Eyes stabil and
reliable enough on all other matters. At the moment, people will still sit
back patiently listen to the old song of the bird, twittering about Version
8. At the moment! But how long does a moment last? How long will it take,
before Window-Eyes is no longer the most rock-solid screen reader around?
How long will it take, before the users rather will deal with some buggy
stuff from the competitors, since they at least will get their hands on the
web information with other products? And, How long will it take before the
competitors have straightened out their bugs; with GW not even having out a
Beta of their new version? How many users can just sit down waiting for
promises? You cannot have your new job, simply based on promises. You cannot
do your bill payment in the bank, based on promises. You cannot hand in your
school examine just based on promises. See how many phone companies, would
let me have my phone running, if I told them there will be money paid, when
Window-Eyes 8 is out - sometime down the road. Or, which employer would let
you have the job, if he had to feed you sandwiches from now on, till WE8 is
out, just to make you busy with something? Yes, some of this is exergerated
a bit, to stress the point. But most of it, is the real matter of fact.
As for the WE7.5, I cannot speak too much - since I am forced to use a
non-US version of WE7.2, and there still is no update around for that one.
Yet another thing GW will have to stress a bit, if they want to keep the
market lead. It surprises me, that it takes several months to translate an
update of WE. Honestly, there is not all that much for a difference, or all
that many phrases to translate. Still, from what I read on the list here, I
have a bit of trouble, when some people say they'd rather have a new version
when it is ready. Seems there is a good deal of bugs, and I guess there
always will be. Yet, I do still wonder, what in version 7.5 will be worth my
money, once it has been translated and released locally. I really have seen
little information that would convince me, to spend all that money. What
would get my wallet moving though, would be the day when a reliable fix is
out for the browse mode. A fix that would save me frustration, and a ton of
time, in having to close, refind, reopen, hope-for-the-best when trying to
lookup information or doing other activities on the net.
no no no, don't rush it until it is ready. Simply just get it ready.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Juranek"<[email protected]>
To: "Chris Hill"<[email protected]>; "gwmicro"<[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web
Browsing)
Hi,
I'm sure GW is working hard.
Trust me, they want to do it right, so let them do it right.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a version of window-eyes
that works reliably on the web, then a piece of junk that GW just goes
rush rush rush and releases.
That's my opinion on this thread.
Take Care.
On 6/12/11, Chris Hill<[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, but at least voiceover generally works, even on my puny iphone 3gs.
Delete even speaks every character I delete, unlike window-eyes and
office 2007. I can find pages that work on my iphone better than on
window-eyes, and getting the job done is what this is about. Frankly,
the previous release was like the guy who drops his keys in the grass in
the dark and goes looking for them in the street under a street light
because he can't see in the dark. I don't know who gw was trying to
impress, maybe they had a possible big customer who didn't like the way
it looked, but I sure would have rather received improvements on the web
where I'm spending more and more of my computer time.
On 6/12/2011 22:47, Juan Gonzalez wrote:
I know that I will regret this, but you need to stop and think about
what you are saying. lets take apple as an example. there voice over
only provides speech for one browser. you have no choices. GW and other
windows screen readers are trying to give you choices so your not stuck
with one browser. Now apple only having to work with one browser still
has problems. now try to support two browsers and try to add more on the
list. we should be glad that GW and other screen readers have given us
choices. GW is working hard to gives something that will work instead of
putting something that can support it and not work correctly. do you
want to use up all your free upgrades and then have them charge for the
real fix? I rather them come out with fixes and be free upgrades but
that is a different story. Just give them time and let them do it right.
Juan Gonzalez
Need training at an affordable price?
Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com<http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com>
to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.
You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the
web design link.
*From:* Jacob Schmude<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:35 PM
*To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes
and Web Browsing)
And why bother with that when other products just work? Again, what
about pages where no alternative exists? I'm not necessarily intending
to raise problems with specific web sites, but merely to provide
examples. A lot of pages that have no alternative are internal or else
private (bank web pages for example) so I can't exactly give them as
examples. You can suggest all the alternatives you'd like, but when I
hit a page that doesn't have one, I'm still left with the bug and no
workaround where window-eyes is concerned.
Still, I'm glad one of my objectives has been achieved: to spark a large
discussion out in the open where it is much harder to ignore. Support
requests and bug reports can be filed away, but it's more difficult to
do that with list discussions as, even if the discussion is removed from
the archives, those who participate will remember and know that it was
deleted. I have a certain amount of loyalty to GW Micro, if I didn't I'd
just ignore Window-Eyes' deficiencies and leave it at that. Sometimes,
things must be dragged out no matter how unpleasant, and I think this is
long past due. The web is important, more so today than ever before, and
if we as blind people expect to keep up then we need to make sure the
products on which we rely are able to do so with us. I am not willing to
be relegated to the 90's where we needed text-only web pages because our
screen readers couldn't keep up. I've been there before, and I'm not
going back.
On 6/12/2011 20:25, Juan Gonzalez wrote:
as far as youtube is concerned there is an accessible version and you
can find the link at blindaccesstraining.com under the helpful
resources
Juan Gonzalez
Need training at an affordable price?
Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com<http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com>
to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.
You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the
web design link.
*From:* Jacob Schmude<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:21 PM
*To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes
and Web Browsing)
Doublas,
Do you really think I haven't tried all of that? The mouse keys don't
work for those links, not in Firefox. They do in IE, but that
particular problem has only ever appeared in Firefox. Google was an
*example*. Yes, you can use labs.google.com, but what am I supposed to
do on Youtube? On Paypal? Wikipedia or other Wikis? How about
specialized pages that I have to work with that have no alternative? I
don't have the time to go looking for workarounds anymore. It would be
one thing if these were general workarounds that all screen reader
users needed to do, but they're not, and when the choice is find a
workaround for almost everything I need to do or switch screen
readers, it's not much of a choice. I have used window-eyes for nearly
10 years, so please give me credit that I've tried the obvious... over
and over again. I like a lot about Window-Eyes, but in the past few
versions, the bugs have just become more of a problem than the
features can offset. I'll take a few less bling and a bit more work,
thanks.
On 6/12/2011 18:12, douglas rudolph wrote:
hey man, uhhh, i really don't know where to start. you don't know how
to work around these issues obviously, very simple fixes i might
add.. your google problem use
labs.google.com/accible, or google.com/custom, and your links that
dont' show as links such as on facebook with the status, link, photo,
video, etc, use your mouse simulation keys... easy fix
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Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Jacob Schmude<mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:03 PM
*Subject:* A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes
and Web Browsing)
Hi
** Warning: Begin a sort of rant **
Unfortunately, the Firefox issues have been in Window-Eyes for
years. Essentially, dynamic content causes the entire page to be
refreshed. Google's edit field causes the page to change as you
type in order for it to suggest search results, and this triggers
window-eyes' page reload behavior. We have been promised a fix
for this for years and have never gotten it and, while I don't
know about anyone else, I'm losing my patience with window-eyes
on the web with Firefox in particular, but with IE as well.
Window-Eyes' support for Firefox is a joke. Standard elements
such as onclicks are not identified (most other screen readers
call these clickables), image links are not identified as links,
reviewing edited text doesn't work, the auto completion and
history list in the address bar do not work properly (they
briefly flash in Braille but never speak), flash within Firefox
is not accessible, mouseOvers and other dynamic content do not
update the buffer or when they do you are thrown to the top, and
I could go on. These are things we've been promised fixes for,
and what do we get? New whiz-bang features with old bugs.
Internet Explorer 9 is not much better (GW, did you even test IE9
at all?). Dynamic pages with hidden elements are not properly
rendered (the hidden elements are shown when they should not be,
have a look at Gmail or Google Voice's pages for that one), There
are random headings and lists with 0 items inserted everywhere
while real headings are not identified (blindbargains.com for
that last), entering text in forms somehow fails to allow all
typed characters through (I'm a fast typist). Each and every one
of these problems I've listed, the free screen reader NVDA has
overcome (most of these it never exhibited at all). Jaws, that
other screen reader, isn't far behind and Baum's Cobra doesn't
have these troubles either. Quite frankly, given the importance
of the internet, this is unacceptable and, as a Window-Eyes
customer for years, I feel more than a little cheated. To GW:
Don't follow FS down the path of release release release but
don't fix. I don't care if it takes two years for a new version,
as long as that new version of Window-Eyes works to the best of
your abilities. This is not the best and, if you're going to brag
about your IE9 support, you'd better make blasted sure it works
as advertised. The 7.5 release only had one beta cycle. One.
Let's look at this honestly for a second, no marketing, no pr.
What does 7.5 offer over 7.2 that is worth paying $175 for? A new
set file format? Not worth that much. A few new scripting
functions? Again, not worth that. Cascading settings (a nice
feature and long overdue, but worth $175?). A rename of scripts
to app (boy, that must've taken a lot of effort there).
Meanwhile, long standing bugs go unfixed, and the web is just one
area. I could go on but, these days, I'm not sure that GW Micro
really care. I can't tell off the top of my head exactly how much
I've put into window-eyes over the years since I've owned it, and
I'm now using NVDA instead because it's less buggy and actually
allows me to get real work done. That's just not acceptable QA in
my book, and I can't in good conscience put my hard-earned cash
behind a product with this many problems. I apologize for the
harshness, but I've reported many of these within the past
several years and have never seen one fix. Perhaps a little
harshness will get my point across a bit better. I leave that up
to you, GW Micro.
** end rant **
I've never seen the IE8 hanging issue but I'm well familiar with
the rest of the problems you're having. You're not alone.
On 6/12/2011 14:58, Cory Martin wrote:
Hello,
Just wanted to report a couple of issues that I've noticed with
Window Eyes with web browsing:
With Internet Explorer version 8:
Firstly there seem to be issues with Google, specifically after
doing a search, for some reason browse mode doesn't come back
on. It can be enabled with the usual command, however it's the
only site which doesn't seem to bring browse mode back on after
entering a search string.
More difficult to identify however is a strange issue which
seems to affect Internet Explorer where when the browser is
first opened it just hangs, yet opening a second instance of it
may work just fine. I've tried resetting it in the advanced tab
under internet options, as well as using C-Cleaner to remove
extra files, as well as clearing personal data. The issue
persists, yet with other screen readers it doesn't seem to
happen. This does not seem to be a problem with Firefox.
With Mozilla Firefox latest version:
I switched to Firefox full time after having the unsolvable
hanging problem with Internet Explorer. However with Firefox,
there seems to be issues with staying in forms for entering
text. For example if I'm trying to enter a word in to Google it
keeps dropping me back in to browse mode every time I press the
space bar. I've had to use notepad to type out my search string
and then paste it in to the browser. I'm not sure which is more
annoying.
With either browser:
When trying to arrow arrow around in edit boxes on web pages in
both Internet Explorer or Firefox, Window Eyes just makes a ding
sound when trying to review text entered. It is necessary to
drop back in to browse mode to review what's been entered and
then re-enter the edit box and re-position the cursor to where
one wants to correct something based on best guess, or by
cutting the text to notepad and editing it there.
Does anyone have any experience with these problems to either
confirm or deny them? Also and more importantly, does anyone
know of work-arounds to these issues?
Thanks,
Cory
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