he is just having his problem with fire fox when IE is working. that was the point I was trying to make
Juan Gonzalez Need training at an affordable price? Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA. You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the web design link. From: net bat Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:53 PM To: Juan Gonzalez Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing) yeah, but without a browse mode rewrite which has been promised for 3 years no browser will work right. ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Gonzalez To: Jacob Schmude ; GW-Micro Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 8:47 PM Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing) I know that I will regret this, but you need to stop and think about what you are saying. lets take apple as an example. there voice over only provides speech for one browser. you have no choices. GW and other windows screen readers are trying to give you choices so your not stuck with one browser. Now apple only having to work with one browser still has problems. now try to support two browsers and try to add more on the list. we should be glad that GW and other screen readers have given us choices. GW is working hard to gives something that will work instead of putting something that can support it and not work correctly. do you want to use up all your free upgrades and then have them charge for the real fix? I rather them come out with fixes and be free upgrades but that is a different story. Just give them time and let them do it right. Juan Gonzalez Need training at an affordable price? Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA. You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the web design link. From: Jacob Schmude Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing) And why bother with that when other products just work? Again, what about pages where no alternative exists? I'm not necessarily intending to raise problems with specific web sites, but merely to provide examples. A lot of pages that have no alternative are internal or else private (bank web pages for example) so I can't exactly give them as examples. You can suggest all the alternatives you'd like, but when I hit a page that doesn't have one, I'm still left with the bug and no workaround where window-eyes is concerned. Still, I'm glad one of my objectives has been achieved: to spark a large discussion out in the open where it is much harder to ignore. Support requests and bug reports can be filed away, but it's more difficult to do that with list discussions as, even if the discussion is removed from the archives, those who participate will remember and know that it was deleted. I have a certain amount of loyalty to GW Micro, if I didn't I'd just ignore Window-Eyes' deficiencies and leave it at that. Sometimes, things must be dragged out no matter how unpleasant, and I think this is long past due. The web is important, more so today than ever before, and if we as blind people expect to keep up then we need to make sure the products on which we rely are able to do so with us. I am not willing to be relegated to the 90's where we needed text-only web pages because our screen readers couldn't keep up. I've been there before, and I'm not going back. On 6/12/2011 20:25, Juan Gonzalez wrote: as far as youtube is concerned there is an accessible version and you can find the link at blindaccesstraining.com under the helpful resources Juan Gonzalez Need training at an affordable price? Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA. You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the web design link. From: Jacob Schmude Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing) Doublas, Do you really think I haven't tried all of that? The mouse keys don't work for those links, not in Firefox. They do in IE, but that particular problem has only ever appeared in Firefox. Google was an *example*. Yes, you can use labs.google.com, but what am I supposed to do on Youtube? On Paypal? Wikipedia or other Wikis? How about specialized pages that I have to work with that have no alternative? I don't have the time to go looking for workarounds anymore. It would be one thing if these were general workarounds that all screen reader users needed to do, but they're not, and when the choice is find a workaround for almost everything I need to do or switch screen readers, it's not much of a choice. I have used window-eyes for nearly 10 years, so please give me credit that I've tried the obvious... over and over again. I like a lot about Window-Eyes, but in the past few versions, the bugs have just become more of a problem than the features can offset. I'll take a few less bling and a bit more work, thanks. On 6/12/2011 18:12, douglas rudolph wrote: hey man, uhhh, i really don't know where to start. you don't know how to work around these issues obviously, very simple fixes i might add.. your google problem use labs.google.com/accible, or google.com/custom, and your links that dont' show as links such as on facebook with the status, link, photo, video, etc, use your mouse simulation keys... easy fix .This email may contain personal identifyable information. Copy, relay, redistributions, and or reading of these emails is strictly prohibited, unless you are the intended recipiant of this email, and this intended recipiant only. If this is not the intended recipiant, then you are requested to delete this message immediately and notify sender. Douglas Rudolph Tel: 1306-565-2056 Cell: 1306-209-2823 Email: [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: Jacob Schmude To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing) Hi ** Warning: Begin a sort of rant ** Unfortunately, the Firefox issues have been in Window-Eyes for years. Essentially, dynamic content causes the entire page to be refreshed. Google's edit field causes the page to change as you type in order for it to suggest search results, and this triggers window-eyes' page reload behavior. We have been promised a fix for this for years and have never gotten it and, while I don't know about anyone else, I'm losing my patience with window-eyes on the web with Firefox in particular, but with IE as well. Window-Eyes' support for Firefox is a joke. Standard elements such as onclicks are not identified (most other screen readers call these clickables), image links are not identified as links, reviewing edited text doesn't work, the auto completion and history list in the address bar do not work properly (they briefly flash in Braille but never speak), flash within Firefox is not accessible, mouseOvers and other dynamic content do not update the buffer or when they do you are thrown to the top, and I could go on. These are things we've been promised fixes for, and what do we get? New whiz-bang features with old bugs. Internet Explorer 9 is not much better (GW, did you even test IE9 at all?). Dynamic pages with hidden elements are not properly rendered (the hidden elements are shown when they should not be, have a look at Gmail or Google Voice's pages for that one), There are random headings and lists with 0 items inserted everywhere while real headings are not identified (blindbargains.com for that last), entering text in forms somehow fails to allow all typed characters through (I'm a fast typist). Each and every one of these problems I've listed, the free screen reader NVDA has overcome (most of these it never exhibited at all). Jaws, that other screen reader, isn't far behind and Baum's Cobra doesn't have these troubles either. Quite frankly, given the importance of the internet, this is unacceptable and, as a Window-Eyes customer for years, I feel more than a little cheated. To GW: Don't follow FS down the path of release release release but don't fix. I don't care if it takes two years for a new version, as long as that new version of Window-Eyes works to the best of your abilities. This is not the best and, if you're going to brag about your IE9 support, you'd better make blasted sure it works as advertised. The 7.5 release only had one beta cycle. One. Let's look at this honestly for a second, no marketing, no pr. What does 7.5 offer over 7.2 that is worth paying $175 for? A new set file format? Not worth that much. A few new scripting functions? Again, not worth that. Cascading settings (a nice feature and long overdue, but worth $175?). A rename of scripts to app (boy, that must've taken a lot of effort there). Meanwhile, long standing bugs go unfixed, and the web is just one area. I could go on but, these days, I'm not sure that GW Micro really care. I can't tell off the top of my head exactly how much I've put into window-eyes over the years since I've owned it, and I'm now using NVDA instead because it's less buggy and actually allows me to get real work done. That's just not acceptable QA in my book, and I can't in good conscience put my hard-earned cash behind a product with this many problems. I apologize for the harshness, but I've reported many of these within the past several years and have never seen one fix. Perhaps a little harshness will get my point across a bit better. I leave that up to you, GW Micro. ** end rant ** I've never seen the IE8 hanging issue but I'm well familiar with the rest of the problems you're having. You're not alone. On 6/12/2011 14:58, Cory Martin wrote: Hello, Just wanted to report a couple of issues that I've noticed with Window Eyes with web browsing: With Internet Explorer version 8: Firstly there seem to be issues with Google, specifically after doing a search, for some reason browse mode doesn't come back on. It can be enabled with the usual command, however it's the only site which doesn't seem to bring browse mode back on after entering a search string. More difficult to identify however is a strange issue which seems to affect Internet Explorer where when the browser is first opened it just hangs, yet opening a second instance of it may work just fine. I've tried resetting it in the advanced tab under internet options, as well as using C-Cleaner to remove extra files, as well as clearing personal data. The issue persists, yet with other screen readers it doesn't seem to happen. This does not seem to be a problem with Firefox. With Mozilla Firefox latest version: I switched to Firefox full time after having the unsolvable hanging problem with Internet Explorer. However with Firefox, there seems to be issues with staying in forms for entering text. For example if I'm trying to enter a word in to Google it keeps dropping me back in to browse mode every time I press the space bar. I've had to use notepad to type out my search string and then paste it in to the browser. I'm not sure which is more annoying. With either browser: When trying to arrow arrow around in edit boxes on web pages in both Internet Explorer or Firefox, Window Eyes just makes a ding sound when trying to review text entered. It is necessary to drop back in to browse mode to review what's been entered and then re-enter the edit box and re-position the cursor to where one wants to correct something based on best guess, or by cutting the text to notepad and editing it there. Does anyone have any experience with these problems to either confirm or deny them? Also and more importantly, does anyone know of work-arounds to these issues? Thanks, Cory If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv. __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6201 (20110612) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
