David Very well said, indeed. Right on the money.
On 6/12/2011 23:00, David wrote:
Don't think that anyone here is talking about 'rushing' anything. Neither in this discussion, or the similar ones, that have been on the list for ever so long, when comes to the browse mode rewrite.There is a couple of things, that I am sure, we ALL will agree on. 1st, we don't want GW to rush anything out the door, before it is solidly ready. 2nd, we don't want to pay for any half-done job; and so appriciate the fact that several of the upgrades are being released as free-of-charge ones. 3rd, we still want, and need, well even should have our rights in expecting, that Window-Eyes will stay up-to-date, and being reliable.What I think many a user is wondering, is how come that the browse mode has not been updated, since it has been promised for a long time, and the need for an update is getting rather obvious for those of us who do more like 80-plus percent of our computing on the net these days. The question, I think, even becomes all the more obvious, due to the fact of GW telling us over and over again, how closely they are working with companies like Microsoft. OK, Microsoft is not liable for each and every one of the billions of web sites out there, neither are any screen reader manufacturer in full control of new html or the like standards. Yet, since the other manufacturers have managed to keep their web-utility updated, and hence to some extend outrange GW's product as per date, it is timely to ask what is so complicated that GW is not willing to let out the door any updates. They started, true enough, to talk about a rewrite back when WE7 was released. It being two or three years ago, still it has been a good amount of time, to do such a rewrite. Maybe they are working on it. We don't know, as they have been little willing to come out yet, with any information as to what the progress on the matter is. And, I guess, somehow that even gears up some of the frustration, of many a user; since it easily could tell a story about the GW staff not even looking at the matter. Yet, I am sure they are. Seems - based on some earlier comments from that corner - that they have had a challenge in knowing exactly how to handle certain parts of the matter.Even the most loyal user of WE, will have to agree, that few things in the computer world changes more rapidly, and frequently, than the internet. And many a user will agree, that browse mode is long time overdue. None of this conflicts with the fact, that we want a solid, fully working, stabil, well-tested and reliable product. It simply just means, that with a browse mode, that skips a third of the links, onclicks, buttons and so forth on web pages, we no longer can claim WE to be the most stabil and reliable product on the market. Be it as stabil as it wants, in Office 2010, Itunes, Vista or whatever - if it cannot read the webpages correctly and reliably, I do claim a screen reader is not much for a market leader these days.Now, of course, many users will pop in here, claiming they have no trouble in browsing the web. To all of those, let me express my heartfelt congratulations. Long as the screen reader does what you expect, and is reliable in its functionality, I really say you are lucky, and that is great. On the other hand, too many a message on this list, has denoted the fact, there is enough of examples of websites, that are totally - or at least close thereto - useless with Window-Eyes. Give you but one example, which a ton of people will be familiar with, and which was pointed out earlier in this thread. If you try to send money, for instance pay for an EBay winning, using Paypal. OK, the webpage itself might read kind of well enough. But if you tab through the page, hoping for a place where it says things like 'confirm payment', or 'pay now'; you soon will be disappointed. The correct place to hit your Enter-key, would be where it simply says 'button'. Poof! How are we to know, that 'button' means 'confirm payment', and not 'go and have a cup of chocolate'. (smiile) It would be easy enough to give a long line of examples of websites, that gives similar 'half-way' informations. Let's now add on all the websites that do not even read at all, or at least that brokenly that you would have been doing better never visiting that site. Go then ahead, talking about the fact of Window-Eyes hanging every ten time, you open a web page, causing whatever for a problem of the user you might experience. Well, go on with the list, and you will see, why a lot of people ask things to be fixed. We don't want it to be rushed, unstabil or untested; we want it to be FIXED - that is all.If there was no fix around, well by then, GW or whoever go ahead and tell us that it will be fixed in the future. Go on, sing that song, till our ears fall off, or till Eloquence knows the phrase well enough to studder it out everytime browse mode hangs on our computer. The reality though, is that there is some kind of fix around. And that is called: USE ANOTHER SCREEN READER FOR YOUR BROWSING SESSIONS... Surely, that is not what GW wants us to do, and I assure you, noone of the thousands of users around the globe wants to play-and-fool around with more than one screen reader at a time either. That is EXACTLY why its been stressed over and over again, the need for an update. And since other manufacturers have been able to solve the challenges - at least to some better degree than what GW can show up at the moment - I really think the users are in their right, of asking what is so complicated that GW cannot solve it at the moment.Oh yes, we have heard about the new html standard that is going to come around. Well, let me ask you guys: When Office 2007 came out, did GW sit down and tell their users that 'we will get Office support running, once Office 2010 is out'? Or, did they leave their customers behind, when Windows 7 was released, simply because Windows 8 is already on the engineers' slate? NO! In all these cases, GW proudly anounced to the public, that they were apparently the very first ones on the market, to have their users up-to-date, fully in line with the current development on the market. My point here is, why would we ever sit back and wait for some kind of new standard to pop out, before an update of the browse mode? When the new standard is released, there is simply just plans for a totally new version of the standard, that will keep the engineers employed. That is business, and it is reality. I really have a hard time, figuring when would be the perfect time to release the new browse mode. There simply never will be. But that doesn't say, that the users might be lacking, all the time you don't get anything out the door. Don't please, GW staff, jump in here, telling the good old story about the priorities. We know that one, and true some priorities might be important. It is - for one thing - good that you let out the version that supports Windows7, since it is really hard to find a new computer these days with anything but that OS. And, the person that is employed in a big company that has the bigg money to install the newest Office suite on all their computers; well that user is overly happy since you let out a version of WE, supporting Office 2010. Yet, how many a user, do you think, has the money to pop out buying the newest Office? Specially so, since they could import their old Office suite under the newer Windows. Now then, compare that number, with the thousands of users, that are using the Internet each day - many times each day - and are fully depending on that feature, so as to handle their day-today activities; or even make themselves a living or job. I don't need to much fantacy, let alone much for experience of life, to realize which number will be the highest. And, I don't have any trouble at all, in relating with the many users who are frustrated about an ever-ongoing broken browse mode. NO! It is not working. I have to close and reopen webpages several times an hour, just because Eloquence packs up his Window-Eyes suitcase, and goes for his many fancy cruises out there on cyberspace; leaving me at home, with an ice cream in my hand. Smile. And, don't tell me to use another voice like Dectalk please, as the non-US Window-Eyes I am forced to use, hasn't had such capabilities since version 7. Besides, I am about to claim that it is no matter of Eloquence, rather a matter of Window-Eyes itself.GW, what good is in a computer these days, if it cannot reliably go on the internet. Which job, even in the biggest companies, will be all that solely relying on support for the newest and fanciest version of Office or whatever, that such things should down-prioritize the need for internet support? Stabile internet support. Reliable internet support. Correct internet support.If GW really wants to keep their position as the market leader of the screen reader comunity, and if they want to stand behind their frequently declaring Window-Eyes to be the most 'rock solid' reader on the market - well in such a case, they HAVE TO get browse mode fixed. OK, at the moment, people can somehow live with it. At the moment, people will find Window-Eyes stabil and reliable enough on all other matters. At the moment, people will still sit back patiently listen to the old song of the bird, twittering about Version 8. At the moment! But how long does a moment last? How long will it take, before Window-Eyes is no longer the most rock-solid screen reader around? How long will it take, before the users rather will deal with some buggy stuff from the competitors, since they at least will get their hands on the web information with other products? And, How long will it take before the competitors have straightened out their bugs; with GW not even having out a Beta of their new version? How many users can just sit down waiting for promises? You cannot have your new job, simply based on promises. You cannot do your bill payment in the bank, based on promises. You cannot hand in your school examine just based on promises. See how many phone companies, would let me have my phone running, if I told them there will be money paid, when Window-Eyes 8 is out - sometime down the road. Or, which employer would let you have the job, if he had to feed you sandwiches from now on, till WE8 is out, just to make you busy with something? Yes, some of this is exergerated a bit, to stress the point. But most of it, is the real matter of fact.As for the WE7.5, I cannot speak too much - since I am forced to use a non-US version of WE7.2, and there still is no update around for that one. Yet another thing GW will have to stress a bit, if they want to keep the market lead. It surprises me, that it takes several months to translate an update of WE. Honestly, there is not all that much for a difference, or all that many phrases to translate. Still, from what I read on the list here, I have a bit of trouble, when some people say they'd rather have a new version when it is ready. Seems there is a good deal of bugs, and I guess there always will be. Yet, I do still wonder, what in version 7.5 will be worth my money, once it has been translated and released locally. I really have seen little information that would convince me, to spend all that money. What would get my wallet moving though, would be the day when a reliable fix is out for the browse mode. A fix that would save me frustration, and a ton of time, in having to close, refind, reopen, hope-for-the-best when trying to lookup information or doing other activities on the net.no no no, don't rush it until it is ready. Simply just get it ready.----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Juranek" <[email protected]>To: "Chris Hill" <[email protected]>; "gwmicro" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 5:28 AMSubject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing)If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it.Hi, I'm sure GW is working hard. Trust me, they want to do it right, so let them do it right. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a version of window-eyes that works reliably on the web, then a piece of junk that GW just goes rush rush rush and releases. That's my opinion on this thread. Take Care. On 6/12/11, Chris Hill <[email protected]> wrote:Yes, but at least voiceover generally works, even on my puny iphone 3gs.Delete even speaks every character I delete, unlike window-eyes and office 2007. I can find pages that work on my iphone better than on window-eyes, and getting the job done is what this is about. Frankly,the previous release was like the guy who drops his keys in the grass inthe dark and goes looking for them in the street under a street light because he can't see in the dark. I don't know who gw was trying to impress, maybe they had a possible big customer who didn't like the wayit looked, but I sure would have rather received improvements on the webwhere I'm spending more and more of my computer time. On 6/12/2011 22:47, Juan Gonzalez wrote:If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message isI know that I will regret this, but you need to stop and think about what you are saying. lets take apple as an example. there voice overonly provides speech for one browser. you have no choices. GW and other windows screen readers are trying to give you choices so your not stuckwith one browser. Now apple only having to work with one browser stillhas problems. now try to support two browsers and try to add more on thelist. we should be glad that GW and other screen readers have given uschoices. GW is working hard to gives something that will work instead ofputting something that can support it and not work correctly. do youwant to use up all your free upgrades and then have them charge for thereal fix? I rather them come out with fixes and be free upgrades butthat is a different story. Just give them time and let them do it right.Juan Gonzalez Need training at an affordable price? Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com <http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com> to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA. You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the web design link. *From:* Jacob Schmude <mailto:[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:35 PM *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing) And why bother with that when other products just work? Again, what about pages where no alternative exists? I'm not necessarily intending to raise problems with specific web sites, but merely to provide examples. A lot of pages that have no alternative are internal or else private (bank web pages for example) so I can't exactly give them as examples. You can suggest all the alternatives you'd like, but when I hit a page that doesn't have one, I'm still left with the bug and no workaround where window-eyes is concerned.Still, I'm glad one of my objectives has been achieved: to spark a largediscussion out in the open where it is much harder to ignore. Support requests and bug reports can be filed away, but it's more difficult todo that with list discussions as, even if the discussion is removed fromthe archives, those who participate will remember and know that it wasdeleted. I have a certain amount of loyalty to GW Micro, if I didn't I'djust ignore Window-Eyes' deficiencies and leave it at that. Sometimes,things must be dragged out no matter how unpleasant, and I think this is long past due. The web is important, more so today than ever before, andif we as blind people expect to keep up then we need to make sure theproducts on which we rely are able to do so with us. I am not willing to be relegated to the 90's where we needed text-only web pages because ourscreen readers couldn't keep up. I've been there before, and I'm not going back. On 6/12/2011 20:25, Juan Gonzalez wrote:as far as youtube is concerned there is an accessible version and youcan find the link at blindaccesstraining.com under the helpful resourcesJuan Gonzalez Need training at an affordable price?Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com <http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com>to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on theweb design link. *From:* Jacob Schmude <mailto:[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:21 PM *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing) Doublas, Do you really think I haven't tried all of that? The mouse keys don't work for those links, not in Firefox. They do in IE, but that particular problem has only ever appeared in Firefox. Google was an*example*. Yes, you can use labs.google.com, but what am I supposed todo on Youtube? On Paypal? Wikipedia or other Wikis? How aboutspecialized pages that I have to work with that have no alternative? I don't have the time to go looking for workarounds anymore. It would beone thing if these were general workarounds that all screen reader users needed to do, but they're not, and when the choice is find a workaround for almost everything I need to do or switch screenreaders, it's not much of a choice. I have used window-eyes for nearly 10 years, so please give me credit that I've tried the obvious... overand over again. I like a lot about Window-Eyes, but in the past few versions, the bugs have just become more of a problem than the features can offset. I'll take a few less bling and a bit more work, thanks. On 6/12/2011 18:12, douglas rudolph wrote:hey man, uhhh, i really don't know where to start. you don't know howto work around these issues obviously, very simple fixes i might add.. your google problem use labs.google.com/accible, or google.com/custom, and your links thatdont' show as links such as on facebook with the status, link, photo,video, etc, use your mouse simulation keys... easy fix .This email may contain personal identifyable information. Copy, relay, redistributions, and or reading of these emails is strictly prohibited, unless you are the intended recipiant of this email, and this intended recipiant only. If this is not the intended recipiant, then you are requested to delete this message immediately and notify sender. Douglas Rudolph Tel: 1306-565-2056 Cell: 1306-209-2823 Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Jacob Schmude <mailto:[email protected]> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:03 PM*Subject:* A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyesand Web Browsing) Hi ** Warning: Begin a sort of rant ** Unfortunately, the Firefox issues have been in Window-Eyes for years. Essentially, dynamic content causes the entire page to be refreshed. Google's edit field causes the page to change as youtype in order for it to suggest search results, and this triggerswindow-eyes' page reload behavior. We have been promised a fix for this for years and have never gotten it and, while I don't know about anyone else, I'm losing my patience with window-eyes on the web with Firefox in particular, but with IE as well. Window-Eyes' support for Firefox is a joke. Standard elements such as onclicks are not identified (most other screen readers call these clickables), image links are not identified as links, reviewing edited text doesn't work, the auto completion and history list in the address bar do not work properly (they briefly flash in Braille but never speak), flash within Firefox is not accessible, mouseOvers and other dynamic content do not update the buffer or when they do you are thrown to the top, and I could go on. These are things we've been promised fixes for, and what do we get? New whiz-bang features with old bugs.Internet Explorer 9 is not much better (GW, did you even test IE9at all?). Dynamic pages with hidden elements are not properly rendered (the hidden elements are shown when they should not be,have a look at Gmail or Google Voice's pages for that one), Thereare random headings and lists with 0 items inserted everywhere while real headings are not identified (blindbargains.com for that last), entering text in forms somehow fails to allow all typed characters through (I'm a fast typist). Each and every one of these problems I've listed, the free screen reader NVDA has overcome (most of these it never exhibited at all). Jaws, that other screen reader, isn't far behind and Baum's Cobra doesn't have these troubles either. Quite frankly, given the importance of the internet, this is unacceptable and, as a Window-Eyes customer for years, I feel more than a little cheated. To GW: Don't follow FS down the path of release release release but don't fix. I don't care if it takes two years for a new version, as long as that new version of Window-Eyes works to the best ofyour abilities. This is not the best and, if you're going to bragabout your IE9 support, you'd better make blasted sure it works as advertised. The 7.5 release only had one beta cycle. One. Let's look at this honestly for a second, no marketing, no pr.What does 7.5 offer over 7.2 that is worth paying $175 for? A newset file format? Not worth that much. A few new scripting functions? Again, not worth that. Cascading settings (a nice feature and long overdue, but worth $175?). A rename of scripts to app (boy, that must've taken a lot of effort there).Meanwhile, long standing bugs go unfixed, and the web is just onearea. I could go on but, these days, I'm not sure that GW Microreally care. I can't tell off the top of my head exactly how much I've put into window-eyes over the years since I've owned it, andI'm now using NVDA instead because it's less buggy and actuallyallows me to get real work done. That's just not acceptable QA inmy book, and I can't in good conscience put my hard-earned cash behind a product with this many problems. I apologize for the harshness, but I've reported many of these within the past several years and have never seen one fix. Perhaps a little harshness will get my point across a bit better. I leave that up to you, GW Micro. ** end rant ** I've never seen the IE8 hanging issue but I'm well familiar with the rest of the problems you're having. You're not alone. On 6/12/2011 14:58, Cory Martin wrote:Hello, Just wanted to report a couple of issues that I've noticed with Window Eyes with web browsing: With Internet Explorer version 8: Firstly there seem to be issues with Google, specifically after doing a search, for some reason browse mode doesn't come back on. It can be enabled with the usual command, however it's the only site which doesn't seem to bring browse mode back on after entering a search string. More difficult to identify however is a strange issue which seems to affect Internet Explorer where when the browser is first opened it just hangs, yet opening a second instance of it may work just fine. I've tried resetting it in the advanced tab under internet options, as well as using C-Cleaner to remove extra files, as well as clearing personal data. The issue persists, yet with other screen readers it doesn't seem to happen. This does not seem to be a problem with Firefox. With Mozilla Firefox latest version: I switched to Firefox full time after having the unsolvable hanging problem with Internet Explorer. However with Firefox, there seems to be issues with staying in forms for entering text. For example if I'm trying to enter a word in to Google it keeps dropping me back in to browse mode every time I press the space bar. I've had to use notepad to type out my search string and then paste it in to the browser. I'm not sure which is more annoying. With either browser: When trying to arrow arrow around in edit boxes on web pages inboth Internet Explorer or Firefox, Window Eyes just makes a dingsound when trying to review text entered. It is necessary to drop back in to browse mode to review what's been entered and then re-enter the edit box and re-position the cursor to where one wants to correct something based on best guess, or by cutting the text to notepad and editing it there. Does anyone have any experience with these problems to either confirm or deny them? Also and more importantly, does anyone know of work-arounds to these issues? Thanks, Cory If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. 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