<Warning:  Social theory type stuff, skip over it if you aren't especially
interested>

I guess this brings up a few different concerns.  First, as I noted in my
previous email, I worry about the demarcation between the two groups.

First off, blog entries and comments are done by individuals, not groups, so
I am not so sure that the differentiation is that clear.  In addition, I
question of the safety of even a simple moderated group.  When the group
gets very large it becomes even more problematic.

I would be tempted to tie this back to some of the paradigm issues I hear
discussed concerning the campaign.  To what extent are connections
centralized?  That smacks of a top-down approach as opposed to a bottom up
approach, particularly in terms of trust.

To the extent that we attempt to establish trust by providing a safe simple
moderated connectivity, the trust is centralized, and if the trust is
violated, it damages the trust in the central authority.  If, on the other
hand, connectivity is decentralized, people need to return to their modes of
impression formation to determine the level of trust.  The abilities to self
organize are much greater and people are relying on their own abilities
instead of some centralized authority.  This is based on observed
interaction, and hence the importance of tools such as blogging.

So, in light of this, I would encourage those interested to think about how
Deanster as well as DeanSpace end up reflecting and affecting the nature of
the organization.

<end of my random ramblings about social aspects of computing>

Aldon


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Zephyr Teachout
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:46 PM
To: 'Aldon Hynes'; 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


Aldon,

I see at as two different kinds of connection we are trying to enable:

(1) end to end individuals(friendster)
(2) end to end group to group (blogging --deanspace)

Both are critical. The latter is distributed, the former is centralized,
and they work together. The former is simple, and moderated, and safe --
the latter is someone complex, nonmoderated, and highly expressive. I
think that answers your concerns, which are critical. I think its also
important to give people very safe, small steps for political
engagement.

Z

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute


-----Original Message-----
From: Aldon Hynes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 2:57 PM
To: Zephyr Teachout; 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything that happened over the
weekend
while I was off at the folk music festival.

So, I'm sorry if I'm covering things that have already been covered, but
I
would like to throw in my two cents here.

Zephyr, I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of public
expression in whatever sort of space is created.  The public expression
is
crucial in establishing a sense of a cohesive community and in
facilitating
different people in connecting.

Let me illustrate:  On Friendster, I am connected to 157232 people in my
Personal Network, through 17 friends.  However, friendster doesn't
facilitate communicating with others in a manner that develops
community.
As such, I haven't made any useful new contacts.

On the other hand, communities like www.ryze.com and www.ecademy.com do
a
much better job of promoting community through things like blogging.

So, I strongly encourage facilities to promote blogging.  Granted, there
are
other venues, including posting comments on the official blog, having
your
own blogs, etc., but I believe having blogs, forums, or similar tools as
part of Deanspace will make it much more effective.

Zephyr raises the issue of moderation.  DFA doesn't have the staff to
vet
who posts or what posts remain if we have a giant network of people
posting.
However, following the paradigm of self organizing systems, and the
example
of DMOZ, I don't believe that is important.  Every site that gets set up
will have its administrators and/or moderators.  This is no different
than
the close to 400 mailing lists that have already been set up.  These
moderators can be as controlling or free flowing as they feel
comfortable
with and fits their particular community.

Part of the beauty of a truly distributed system like this, is that I
can
(or should be able to), as moderator of one system decide what content I
pick up from other systems.  This provides a natural feedback system.
Those
sites that develop a good sense of community through an appropriate
level of
moderation will end up producing more valuable content, which will get
more
widely distributed.

So, that's my two cents on the role of blogs, content, moderation and
community building within DeanSpace.

Comments?

Aldon

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Zephyr Teachout
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:53 PM
To: 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)

The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to help
make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide them.

The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
(1) there are other venues for it, and
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
concern, not dissent).

I'm thinking that we'll just modify our extensive registration to
include all these elements (we're modifying anyway), and then feed the
Data to deanster. The tricks then, are

(1) how to display the information
(2) how to search

Right? The critical thing for the search is that people who are
currently online show up first, but if we start with a really clumsy
search (almost like an excel spreadsheet) we could at least get going.
We're a shoot first improve later campaign, in many ways, but esp. for
this one -- the basic functionality will be heaven for people.

It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
programming guru.

What do you all think?

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


Here's a draft of my design doc for Deanster (a.k.a. the talend
database, the visible volunteers, the "front room"). Please excuse the
parts that aren't quite filled in yet and feel free to correct me where
I'm wrong:

http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?TalentDatabase

peace
-josh

------------------------
Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate!
Elect Howard Dean President in 2004!
http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/

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