I love this mailing list. I love it. Very glad to have smart people making sure the technical details are right. Much appreciated, chaps.
V> -- *Vinay Gupta * * [email protected] <[email protected]> * *http://re.silience.com* <http://re.silience.com> *Free Science and Engineering in the Global Public Interest* UK Cell : +44 (0)7500 895568 Twitter/Skype/Gtalk: hexayurt "In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer" - Albert Camus On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 9:36 PM, Dan March <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks... did that... also boat builders... nada but special > equipment-needed manufacturing grade special-stuff. > > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bruiser Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From what I've read in this thread >> http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/what-adhesive-do-i-use-vinyl-228613.html >> maybe check with a local automotive upholstery shop. Read through there but >> they say that 3M Top & Trim adhesive is also good. Or, if you can't get >> either due to California law, check with the upholsterer to see their >> recommendations. >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 2:04:19 PM UTC-6, BurnerDan wrote: >> >>> Interesting-looking product. Commercial grade? Don't know about you, >>> but I'm in California - where it can't be shipped... or sold? I talked >>> with the DAP factory rep who assured me that the Original Contact Cement >>> was the best I could buy. The can says "High heat resistance." >>> >>> If the material your link talks about is available, I'd love to know how >>> to get some. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Bruiser Smith <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Did you use the DAP Weldwood HHR Contact Cement specifically? >>>> >>>> http://www.yourautotrim.com/noname37.html >>>> >>>> It seems like it's highly recommended for vinyl applications for car >>>> interiors as it's rated for 250F. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:18:52 PM UTC-6, BurnerDan wrote: >>>> >>>>> Watch out for contact cement losing it in high heat! I used it (the >>>>> original non-water-based - because DAP recommended it over the water >>>>> version) to attach vinyl fabric in my interior build-out of my Sprinter >>>>> here in LA (where we see Burning Man temps). It started off looking >>>>> great, >>>>> seemed to have an excellent bond to metal, wood, etc. When it started >>>>> letting go a year or so later, I asked around and sure enough, it's not >>>>> that uncommon. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Bruiser Smith <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jacob - >>>>>> >>>>>> I've read your posts on here, the guide and videos on your Google >>>>>> Drive, as well as your posts on Eplaya. First off - thank you for putting >>>>>> together such a comprehensive guide! I am looking to apply this to my >>>>>> pentayurt (H10) this year, and have a couple questions which would >>>>>> greatly >>>>>> help me out: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. What are your thoughts following the method of foil taping the >>>>>> edges rather than using masking tape or contact cement? I already >>>>>> have a >>>>>> large roll of 3" foil. >>>>>> 2. For the 'loose' hinges, did you use both 7 inch on the inside >>>>>> as well as the outside? >>>>>> 3. Thoughts on using vinyl/cc hinges for doors & windows? >>>>>> 4. For my structure, which needs longer lengths of vinyl, can't I >>>>>> just buy a few yards of vinyl and cut them length-wise? >>>>>> 5. Thoughts on using a hand roller to minimize bubbles? >>>>>> http://www.istscientific.com/user/products/large/quickseal-hand- >>>>>> roller.jpg >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.istscientific.com/user/products/large/quickseal-hand-roller.jpg> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Again I can't thank you enough for putting together all of the >>>>>> resources that you have!!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sunday, July 7, 2013 11:45:17 PM UTC-6, Jacob Rodriguez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, not sure about "tap plastics". The stuff I'm buying is used >>>>>>> for covering furniture, or used as storm windows or whatever. Marine >>>>>>> vinyl >>>>>>> is really good. I used to think it was 4 gauge vinyl, but it's actually >>>>>>> 12 >>>>>>> gauge. Probably best to make sure it's UV treated, but mine doesn't say >>>>>>> specifically and is proving itself quite well outside for the past >>>>>>> month or >>>>>>> so. No cracking or getting hard or anything. Anything that is sold to be >>>>>>> used outdoors is what you're looking for. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's a link to Amazon to give you an idea of what you want: >>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/No-Manufacturer-Gauge-Clear-Viny >>>>>>> l/dp/B003ZFA4LM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373261515&sr=8-1&key >>>>>>> words=12+gauge+vinyl >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've also just updated a document that explains a lot of stuff here >>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x-PUR8OMG-4_uxGuXYmoctYTdwBAl8R0mYkJc0gnCYY/edit?usp=sharing>. >>>>>>> One thing I just learned is not to use the "eco friendly" contact cement >>>>>>> that cleans up with water. Use the hardcore stuff. I'm all for saving >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> environment, but the 'Woodweld' in a green can is not what you want >>>>>>> (takes >>>>>>> too long to get tacky and dry). Find the "original" stuff in the red >>>>>>> can if >>>>>>> you can. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Using 4 vs 6 inches is up to you. I'm personally going with 4 inches >>>>>>> for my tight hinges (giving me 2 inches of contact on either board) and >>>>>>> then 7 inch strips on my loose hinges (3 inches will be taken up by my >>>>>>> board thickness (1.5"), and then 2" on each surface). In my experience, >>>>>>> that seems to be plenty strong. See my tests >>>>>>> <https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9akv0Z5bU-IazJmZ2NHa2l3dVU&usp=sharing> >>>>>>> (labeled >>>>>>> "Test") on various things. Those prototypes only have 1.5 inches on each >>>>>>> board, and some of that is over masking tape, reducing their adhesion; >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> hold up pretty well. Though it never hurts to overbuild, and if you're >>>>>>> doing a regular hexayurt, you won't use too much, so why not? On my quad >>>>>>> dome, I have something like 136 joins/edges that need to be done, so I >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> require about 31 yds of the stuff. Something like that anyway. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have fun! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:00:32 PM UTC-7, Steve Upstill (Swifty) >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I LOVE this discussion of hinging technology and I'm sold on >>>>>>>> replacing my "permanent" tape hinges with the vinyl/contact cement >>>>>>>> combo--at least for purposes of experimentation. Could someone with >>>>>>>> experience provide a quick buying guide for the stuff? Vinyl is a >>>>>>>> many-varied beast and it would be nice to know exactly what to head >>>>>>>> for. Is >>>>>>>> Tap Plastics my friend in this department? Anybody have any data about >>>>>>>> 4" >>>>>>>> vs. 6" strips? ...and so forth... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many Thanks, >>>>>>>> Steve Upstill >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:17:41 PM UTC-7, Jacob Rodriguez wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, I'm going to be building a quarter sized nearodesic polyhedron >>>>>>>>> ("quad") dome (1 rmax sheet = 8 triangles) for BRC this year. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My foamcore and masking tape prototypes (1:12 and 1:5 scale) have >>>>>>>>> been going well. I'm learning how to do the tape hinges, and how to >>>>>>>>> miter >>>>>>>>> the edges with a razor and angled metal guide. I'm thinking that the >>>>>>>>> full >>>>>>>>> size version will be relatively easy to prepare and construct. My end >>>>>>>>> result is a 6' high, 12' diameter dome that folds down into a 4' x 4' >>>>>>>>> x 15" >>>>>>>>> high box. Minimal tape is required as all but one edge of each quad is >>>>>>>>> hinged with fabric and adhesive. Only the top square, and 4 "corners" >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> to be fully taped together. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm seeing lots of people commenting on how the BFT (bi-filament >>>>>>>>> tape) is not really UV resistant, so it flakes off eventually. Also, >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> it's barely a semi-permanent solution, even if you do tape hinges >>>>>>>>> instead >>>>>>>>> of one-time assembly. I've considered many different types of ways to >>>>>>>>> join >>>>>>>>> the triangles that would last more than one or two times: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - zippers (needed like 400 of them, really really expensive) >>>>>>>>> - button snaps and straps (would glue on the snaps to the boards, >>>>>>>>> then use a strap to snap them together; this is not weather proof at >>>>>>>>> all) >>>>>>>>> - velcro (again, pretty expensive if you use the really good >>>>>>>>> velcro, which is likely the only way to guarantee structural >>>>>>>>> integrity and >>>>>>>>> 'weatherproof-ness') >>>>>>>>> - magnets (even using strong ones (N45), embedding them in the >>>>>>>>> edges of the triangles, they could jsut fall out, and still not >>>>>>>>> weather >>>>>>>>> proof. also $$$) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ..and a couple of other ideas. I've learned that putting metal >>>>>>>>> hooks/rods/bolts (binder clips) through the boards will just rip >>>>>>>>> through it >>>>>>>>> with a strong enough tug. They could end up just getting loose and >>>>>>>>> boring >>>>>>>>> out big holes. Using plus-shaped ("+") hooks/rods to fasten some sort >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> fabric over the joints are slightly better because they resist being >>>>>>>>> pulled >>>>>>>>> like a wire cutter through the board, but you would have holes in the >>>>>>>>> board >>>>>>>>> and water could get in. Also, excessive force would also just make the >>>>>>>>> holes looser and ruin the boards eventually. But the idea of using >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> sort of fabric seems to hold merit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My main goal is to build something that can easily be packed away, >>>>>>>>> and assembled multiple time. Realizing that the main principles of a >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>> BM structure are to seal out rain, dust and light, I think I've come >>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>> with a possible solution, but I'm curious why I can't find anyone who >>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>> tried it.* I'm hoping to get some cautionary tales or some >>>>>>>>> encouragement on using sport nylon (as opposed to ripstop), and some >>>>>>>>> Super >>>>>>>>> 77 or 80 or 90 spray adhesive, instead of the traditional tape.* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The cost might be a little more expensive up front (depending on >>>>>>>>> some factors), but I'm thinking that the nylon will last much longer >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> just about any tape and is probably just as strong (if not stronger) >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> BFT. From what I've read, a lot of people end up using some 77 spray >>>>>>>>> anyway >>>>>>>>> because of the lubricating residue on the boards. I'm curious if it's >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> UV resistant (or at least the adhesive would be) and therefore >>>>>>>>> survive the >>>>>>>>> endless sun bathing better. Also, the concept of cutting fabric into >>>>>>>>> strips >>>>>>>>> and using spray adhesive as a backing gives the user many more >>>>>>>>> options when >>>>>>>>> it comes to materials (stronger fabric and/or stronger glue), rather >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> just limiting to such a rare find as 6" BFT. Though I'm sure that >>>>>>>>> sport >>>>>>>>> nylon "tape" is even more rare. You can also make the strips as wide >>>>>>>>> as you >>>>>>>>> want, so you are not limited there either. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've built a prototype of a hinged triangle using foamcore, sport >>>>>>>>> nylon and Super 77, which seems very, very strong. Stronger than >>>>>>>>> masking >>>>>>>>> tape anyway. I'm thinking that while it's not waterproof out of the >>>>>>>>> box, I >>>>>>>>> could always spray with some scotchguard, or tape over everything >>>>>>>>> with the >>>>>>>>> foil tape. Foil tape would also help any concerns on fire-hazard as >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> adhesive is quite flammable. I put a hairdrier on it for about 10 >>>>>>>>> mins on >>>>>>>>> high, to see if excessive heat made the glue loosen, but it did quite >>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>> I'm thinking the higher temp ratings of 80 or 90 adhesive will help >>>>>>>>> in that >>>>>>>>> area. Maybe instead of foil tape. I can spray with some sort of >>>>>>>>> coating >>>>>>>>> that will protect against fire and water at the same time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For cost comparison, my project would be using about 6 rolls of >>>>>>>>> 60yd tape. That's about $20 a roll. Plus about 4 rolls of foil tape >>>>>>>>> (for >>>>>>>>> outside only) at another $20 a roll. I'm thinking that a can of >>>>>>>>> adhesive >>>>>>>>> will last quite a long time, so I may only need about 3 cans at about >>>>>>>>> $20 a >>>>>>>>> pop. The fabric is not that expensive (maybe 5 dollars a yard), so I >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>> all in all, I might come out saving a little cash (if any at all), but >>>>>>>>> ending up with a much more permanent/reusable solution. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anyway, what do you all think? I'm going to be purchasing a piece >>>>>>>>> of polyIso to test. I'm going to make a single "quad" using this >>>>>>>>> nylon and >>>>>>>>> adhesive, then leaving it up on my roof for a week or two to see how >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> handles the weather. It's Santa Monica CA weather so not quite the >>>>>>>>> same, >>>>>>>>> but should give a good indication as to whether it will survive at >>>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "hexayurt" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hexayurt. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "hexayurt" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hexayurt. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "hexayurt" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hexayurt. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "hexayurt" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/hexayurt. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "hexayurt" group. 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