I can't say for sure Simon, because I haven't studied the Polish situation much. I can say, however, that even in the old days, some Ukrainian Lyrniks had a few Polish songs in their repertoire, so there was obviously some exchange across the border. That was definitely also the situation with the bandura/kobza, with some Ukrainian kobzars (kobzars and lirnyks were part of the same guild, kobzars played bandura/kobza, while lirnyks played lira) performing as far away as Moscow and Warsaw, at the royal courts. The lira was also used in Belarus. But, in the time period that we are talking about, borders were much different than they are today, and they have shifted many times. Much of what is considered Ukraine and Belarus today, was once under the Polish/Lithuanian crown - later under Muscovy, and or Austria/Hungary with large parts of the country sometimes being more of a frontier under the control of the Tatars or the Cossacks (who sometimes fought for Poland, sometimes against). It is all creates quite a bit of confusion, with Poland and/or Russia sometimes appropriating Ukrainian artforms as their own (politically, since Poland and Russia governed Ukraine, this is technically correct, but at the same time it is (or ought to be) culturally distinct. The cultural distinction gets blurred by historical politics). In short, I don't know whether the Polish lira tradition has roots in the Ukrainian lirnyks who practiced their art under Polish rule, or whether they had a seperate tradition of their own. I will try to find more information to shed light on this. Orest
-- Simon Wascher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello, Am 11.12.2007 um 15:42 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yes, as I say, though the keys are more-or-less equally spaced, the > tangents are offset by quite a bit to make up the difference. I > think its safe to say that this is a lyra and not a vielle, given > the size of the wheel, the lack of a chien, and the spacing of the > keys - also that it is played by Andrey Vinogradov, who plays lyra > and rylia, somewhat narrows down the possibilities. > > Point of clarification, most Lyrniks and Kobzars were killed > (murdered, exterminated) under orders of the Stalin government. > "Died" just sounds to innocuous to describe what really happened. > there seems to be a quite lively polish "Lira" tribe today, do you happen to know how this is related to the Lyrniks and Kobzars? Anyway there was pretty much time to create new traditions since Stalins death in 1953. At least most of todays european traditions were more death than alive in 1953, like the hurdy-gurdy traditions not just in the Ukraine. Klezmer for example wove new threads into traditions since. A quick search on ÐиÑа ÐолÑÑÐ½Ð°Ñ gives 1270 Google hits, so there is at least ab it of it out there... would be interested to learn more... Simon > > > Orest > > > -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Is that a lyra ? I would say yes , it looks like the > instruments used by > russian and ukranian " lynikis " from old photos . > May I remind you that most lirnikis died in the Stalin period . > > The instrument is also similar to the one in Boston fine arts > museum > that was labelled as french in 1995 , I do not know if the label > has been > changed . > > Do you notice that the tangents are in a very extreme position ? > > > > > > > > >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [email protected] > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: [HG] Is this a Lyra ? > >Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:00:57 GMT > > > >It looks like a Lyra. Vinogradov also plays Rylia, but that has a > >different shape. I wonder whether this one is pentatonic? The > keys are > >spaced so far apart. They are not quite equal, the keys nearer to > the > >wheel are closer together, but also, the tangents are offset by > quite a > >bit. > >Orest > > > >-- "Graham Whyte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Just listen to this > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DX08nQows0 > > > >Its great sound and a great tune > > > >I don't think its an HG > >I am pretty sure it's a Lyra > > > >It has EQUALLY SPACED KEYS !!! > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Click to get the coolest ring tones on your phone, fast and easy --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info _____________________________________________________________ Ultimate Travel Deals - Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3msU7RzJayjuXFgApmjfzXLRQRwZIihLynXUVrnwPaOBbTYA/
