> > Some were terrible and cheated the system to trick players joining their > servers. When Valve tried to stop them, they cheated the system more. Even > after Valve constantly tried to help those community servers who played by > the rules, the community kept calling foul. > > So eventually, Valve (rightly so IMHO) said "Fuck it" and made all > community servers suspect. > > Valve is on the right track giving community servers who play by the rules > equal standing for valve servers. But I'm pretty sure that some community > is going to start gaming the system and Valve will have to say, "Fuck it" > again. >
Certainly, and that will always be the case (and is with every game out there), but when you have to throw out all the good (and there ARE alot of good communities out there) then on the face of it, your system is a failure. If Valve looked at all their data on Snipers in the game, and decided that too many of them were aimbotting, and their solution was to ban every player who played the majority of their play time as a sniper, the community would cry foul, and rightfully so. There are a ton of better ways for dealing with nefarious server operators than the way Valve did it, they simply chose the easy wrong over the hard right. For example - if their problem was people plastering their servers with Pinion ads, than they shoudl have simply removed the ability for them to run in the in-game web browser/MOTD. If the issue was people suing fake bots to trick quickplay, then tie the system to actual Steam ID's that have made a purchase in the past, or are on accounts that are X number of days old. (i.e. only "real" steam users get counted, etc.) ...what I'm getting at is, they gave up the fight, and let the good guys get killed in the process. I firmly believe they're both better and smarter than that. and this is why I rarely post here. Because most people here are not > willing to listen to the other side of things and meet in the middle. > Insulting people who like the Valve servers is not the way to go if you are > wanting to work with Valve to get some compromise going. If you took that as an insult, my apologies, I didn't mean it as one. My point is - You might think Valve's servers offer the best of the game, and I think that community servers do. In the end, we should BOTH be considered "right" - so both experiences should be given equal exposure and treatment. As long as some of the safeguards (i.e. a blacklist that works across the board with both quickplay and the server browser) I mentioned above are implemented, there's really no reason no to. The diversity of TF2 should be celebrated and promoted, not stifled and sidelined. Diversity gives games legs, and leads to longer player retention. For every player that loves "vanilla" there could be players that love fast respawn, or pl_cashworks, or even an Orange server...if they could find them. How many custom maps that had avid followings for 5 years now sit empty? Some of them were the most competitive experiences I've ever had in a game, yet without new blood finding them, eventually every custom map dies out. Again - I'm not asking for "special" treatment, not do I think my servers are the only kind of experience that is relevant - but I DO think they deserve to be found, and they deserve the same chance of being found as any other server. On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Phillip Vector <t...@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: > >What you just said implies that *every *community server provides a > modified game-play experience, which is not only a dubious claim but one > that almost certainly stems from a distinct level of benightedness. > > A modified game-play experience, yes. Even if it's just placing a text ad > every 5 mins., it is a difference experience than stock. I did not mean to > imply that all community servers modify game play. But I would be > interested in seeing one community server that operates like the default > Valve servers do. > > >There are community servers out there, many of them, which offer a > vanilla experience in aspects of game-play. My question to you is why > should those servers be treated as second-class citizens to Valve servers > by "default". > > They shouldn't. However, I don't know how long you have been part of this, > but I recall when community servers weren't treated differently. Some were > terrible and cheated the system to trick players joining their servers. > When Valve tried to stop them, they cheated the system more. Even after > Valve constantly tried to help those community servers who played by the > rules, the community kept calling foul. > > So eventually, Valve (rightly so IMHO) said "Fuck it" and made all > community servers suspect. > > Valve is on the right track giving community servers who play by the rules > equal standing for valve servers. But I'm pretty sure that some community > is going to start gaming the system and Valve will have to say, "Fuck it" > again. > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Cats From Above <spotsfromab...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> What you just said implies that *every *community server provides a >> modified game-play experience, which is not only a dubious claim but one >> that almost certainly stems from a distinct level of benightedness. >> >> There are community servers out there, many of them, which offer a >> vanilla experience in aspects of game-play. My question to you is why >> should those servers be treated as second-class citizens to Valve servers >> by "default". >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Phillip Vector <t...@mostdeadlygame.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >If we're really talking about player choice, here, then you have to >>> remove the "default effect >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_effect_(psychology)>" that gives >>> one group of server preferential treatment over another to achieve "true" >>> player choice. >>> >>> I'm all for player choice. If I want to play in a community server, I >>> should be able to. But I also feel that Valve made a game and this game was >>> balanced (I know the arguments against that it's balanced, but let's say >>> that it's balanced as Valve wants it balanced) for 24 people. Why shouldn't >>> the default game be the default choice? When you play Skyrim, do you have >>> mods auto loaded that you didn't pick because it's community created? When >>> you play any other multiplayer game on a server, is the non-base game ever >>> selected as default? >>> >>> If not, then why should TF2 default to Custom? >>> >>> I know you aren't saying it should, but others here have. They want >>> Community servers to be the first thing that players see and IMHO, the >>> default game should be the first thing. Once they see that, then if they >>> want to explore, they can. Despite what people say that new players can't >>> unclick a checkbox. >>> >>> The interface being passed around looks like a good compromise as long >>> as when you select Community for the first time, a little warning shows up >>> saying that the game they are entering is not the standard game and can be >>> modified so people know what is going on. >>> >>> But yeah. The default should be ... well... the default. >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:53 PM, E. Olsen <ceo.eol...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't have a vendetta against community servers. I just dislike when >>>>> community server owners think they are gods gift to TF2 and demand special >>>>> treatment to the determent of those who want to play vanilla TF2. >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not looking for special treatment. I'd be satisfied with >>>> "equitable" treatment. >>>> >>>> If we're really talking about player choice, here, then you have to >>>> remove the "default effect >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_effect_(psychology)>" that >>>> gives one group of server preferential treatment over another to achieve >>>> "true" player choice. >>>> >>>> For example, I've often heard the argument that "if players want >>>> community servers in quickplay, they can change the settings", and if that >>>> is true - shouldn't the inverse also be true? If it is, than why give any >>>> one group default preference over another? >>>> >>>> Why not simply allow the players to decide? >>>> >>>> ...and I'm sure there are plenty of arguments about servers plastered >>>> with Pinion ads, or servers selling premium BS - but valve already dealt >>>> with all of that, so both of those arguments are moot. >>>> >>>> At any rate, I honestly don't think Community can only flourish in the >>>> absence of Valve's servers, and vice versa. There simply needs to be >>>> options presented which gives both equal exposure to the players, and let's >>>> them decide (without artificially steering them towards one or another). >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 7:38 PM, Phillip Vector <t...@mostdeadlygame.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >Logging cl_connectmethod >>>>> >>>>> That tells you for every server that you own. Not every server in >>>>> existence. Your statement of "The majority of players still click >>>>> play now instead of using the server browser" is missing something. It >>>>> should say, "The majority of players ON MY SERVERS". >>>>> >>>>> Of course, we don't have proof of this even on your own server, but >>>>> I'm willing to accept that those who connect to your servers do so via the >>>>> "Play now" button. >>>>> >>>>> You still can't say that the majority of players though since you >>>>> don't have that data. >>>>> >>>>> >I'm curious as to why you have a vendetta against community servers. >>>>> >>>>> Nice strawman there. I don't have a vendetta against community >>>>> servers. I just dislike when community server owners think they are gods >>>>> gift to TF2 and demand special treatment to the determent of those who >>>>> want >>>>> to play vanilla TF2. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Robert Paulson <thepauls...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Logging cl_connectmethod. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why do you presume that I am pulling it from my ass? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm curious as to why you have a vendetta against community servers. >>>>>> Did you get put on saigns and couldn't figure out how to type "valve" in >>>>>> server browser, so you are resorting to flaming the server owners here? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Phillip Vector < >>>>>> t...@mostdeadlygame.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >The majority of players still click play now instead of using the >>>>>>> server browser so removing valve servers from the browser list probably >>>>>>> does very little for your own servers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please tell me how you managed to get access to this data. Presuming >>>>>>> you aren't pulling it from your ass of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Robert Paulson < >>>>>>> thepauls...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are you all really surprised by this? Valve doesn't care about >>>>>>>> community servers anymore. The moment 1 person complains that they >>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>> wait 15 seconds for quickplay, it gets removed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway you are all acting like half life 3 was announced. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The majority of players still click play now instead of using the >>>>>>>> server browser so removing valve servers from the browser list probably >>>>>>>> does very little for your own servers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < >>>>>>>> proph...@sticed.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Endless waves of communities explaining how quickplay (and other >>>>>>>>> changes ofc) destroys communities, nothing happens. >>>>>>>>> Two people on the mailing list moan about valve servers being >>>>>>>>> excluded from the list, instantfix. GJ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 04.07.2015 23:32, Kevin C wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You have got to be kidding me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png wink wink nudge nudge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking >>>>>>>>>>> servers not being listed in the server browser while we look into >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> further >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >
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