Private charity is a good thing but please fellow libertarians don't look past the greater benefit of Volunter Mutual Aid as one complementry alternative to the profit market place ( the honest profit marketplace is also good and charity. Mutual Aid gives the members far more digtnty than a handout, Mutual Aid allows members to not depend on employers for benefits or the government, several union leaders in the l9th and early 20th century were strongly against the government taking on a welfare role or the employer and they did not want a handout for their members by charity, Fraternial groups, Civic associations, Ethinic associations for the most part fought the welfare state and the welfare state and the political class so called Progressives ( many of them backed by rich industrialist and bankers) helped almost bury Mutual Aid, through hook, crook, racist and xenopobic state laws and state regulations, later federal regulations and the New Deal system of FDR and FDR's facist war economy.. Courts and the jury system should not be over looked either where an injustice as been done, mediation and negotiating on favorable terms for the victims is more likely to occur if the large corporate and government bureucrat or appointee rent seekers can safely assume they might get the pants sued off them.--- In [email protected], Urmas Järve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Would not private chairity be a better way to deal with this situation. Whats the old saying. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to catch fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Some kind of private chairity could help them with the education they need. > > Also the only way for them to increase their wealth is by being entrepreneurial. > > We had similar situations in Estonia. While most of the country was developing and quality of life for most people increased very fast some regions where left behind. But the answer was not government aid but entrepreneurs. With just few years those regions have had amazing growth. People who 5 years ago where just complaining how bad things are started up their own business and are providing jobs for those regions. I recently helped a friend of mine to set up a factory in such area. > > Also if the wages are so small there would it not be a good idea to start manufacturing at that area? John do you know any reason why that has not been done? While most of US has very big wage costs that place could be a nice way to cut costs and at the same time help out those people. Or is there some special reasons why entrepreneurs can not create wealth in that area? > > And John I have seen more poverty and suffering in my short life then you can immagine. The only way to get out of that is by free markets and being entrepreneurial. Just look at what Eastern Europe has done with itself during the last 15 years. Here from 2000 to 2005 wages increased 70%. Q1 2006 we had 11.6% economic growth rate. Unemployment is down to 2.5%. If it works here why can it not work there? > > ohh yes I have lived on less then 2500 kcal per day. > > Best wishes, > Urmas > > On 06/26/2006 09:43, John Stroebel wrote: > > > > Ah....so let them die. That about right Mark? > > > > And the reason is....ending the agreements with this reservation will do > > what...cause the prosperity of this county to increase? > > > > Perhaps Mark you might tell me how. You seem to be an expert of sorts. Would > > you be so kind as to spell out for me what we can expect to see, in some > > order of progression, in way of improvements in San Juan County. > > > > Then perhaps you can tell me what your expertise is. Are you an economist? A > > sociologist? An anthropologist. Maybe you can show me some kind of date, in > > way of study, that will show how this has been tested in a real situation. > > > > Then, Mark, you can perhaps explain how we should handle the starvation of > > 500 people, especially the children. Can you do that? > > > > Have you ever seen people who live on less than 2500 caleries a day Mark? > > Have you ever worked with them? Have you ever worked with children with > > rickets, or anemia, or no teeth? Have you ever shared your lunch with > > children in situations like this? > > > > Have you ever walked into a home and seen dog being served...and people > > happy to have meat for a change? > > > > See Mark, your pat and packaged ideas on how to deal with human beings who > > do not have enough to eat or means to earn a living is much too....clinical > > for me. It seems have shades of cynicism. But them, maybe you are an > > expert...maybe you have done some studies on genocide for the good of the > > economy. Have you? > > > > Now before you cry out about a word or two you take to heart, remember to > > answer the questions. Tell me how the deaths by starvation and disease of > > 500 or so Native Americans who live in the least densely populated and > > poorest county in the USA will help us right now to become more prosperous. > > I'll pass on your remarkable discovery to the people of San Juan County > > Utah. See, they have been looking for a way out of the poverty there for a > > long long time. > > > > Then tell me what you will do after you end this situation. Save more money > > on body armour because that is like a handout too? > > > > On 6/26/06, mark robert wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > > > > If welfare causes poverty, and stopping it reduces poverty, then > > > my answer will not cause more starvation or death than your > > > answer. To the contrary; stopping welfare (we can call it "aid" > > > if you like) increases health and prosperity. As you well know, I > > > did not miss your statements; no wealth, no industry, no > > > opportunity, and low education are all hallmarks of the welfare > > > state. > > > > > > -Mark > > > > > > > > > ************ > > > {American jurors have complete Constitutional authority to vote > > > "not guilty" based on nothing more than a disagreement with the > > > case, no matter the evidence - despite the judge's instructions. > > > There is absolutely no obligation to vote "guilty" to arrive at a > > > unanimous verdict. Get on a jury, stand your ground, and fulfill > > > its other main purpose: to counteract abusive government and > > > unjust lawsuits. > > > See www.fija.org > > > [Please adopt this as your own signature.] } > > > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > Ah. So we leave good people to starve, so that capitolism can > > > thrive. I see. > > > > > > Perhaps you missed my statement that this is THE poorest AND > > > least densely > > > populated county in the USA. There IS no industry no work, no > > > opportunity > > > and the education system has failed these people. The 9 year > > > drought has > > > made cattle ranching almost impossible, too. > > > The only natural resource to speak of are the uranium mines that > > > were closed > > > in the 60's/ > > > > > > So tell me Mark, how do you justify leaving people to die when > > > they were > > > guaranteed food medical care and education? You DO know that the > > > nations are > > > sovereign, right? That these agreements amount to international > > > treaties > > > with the one stipulation that they follow Federal law and that is > > > enforced > > > by the BIA and FBI? > > > > > > So Mark, are your theories more important than international > > > treaties and > > > the lives of people who gave up everything through coercion? > > > > > > Explain to me, please, the logic of that, and how the deaths of > > > these people > > > fit into the chain of priorities. I am curious what is more > > > important than > > > keeping our treaties to people who have no opportunity or > > > resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ***************************************** > > "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang > > separately!" ...Ben Franklin > > > > ****************************************** > > Are YOU Preparing For The November '06 Elections NOW??? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
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