Hi there,
being a totally silent lurker here for a long time I guess I will have to
shortly introduce myself here: I'm SysAdmin in a medium sized educational
company providing trainings to currently unemployed people. I also do a lot of
teaching in several fields of IT.
We don't have the masses of servers in our crate to justify the use of Ansible
or any other automation tools. Every few years we feel the need to throw some
linux based thingy at a problem and solve it that way. So we very much do that
by hand. And by hand I really mean using the editor in which we trust (vi
obviously) and the relevant config files. I even tend to use vigr instead of
more sophisticated tools. Every now and then when it comes to a new member of
staff I look for a basic linux understanding - the remainder I'll teach
him/her^^ - a basic understanding of how the computer works, not to fear the
dark side of a terminal and basic troubleshooting skills are needed. That's
what LPIC-1 is for (for me at least).
The essentials exam doesn't quite cut it and I can't seriously recommend it to
my students as an alternative to what LPIC-1 currently is. It is marketed to
target school pupils, not becoming professionals.
If I look for RH specific capabilities in a candidate I'd look for RH-exams on
his/her resume. If I look for vendor neutral basic capabilities I look for
LPIC. 101 and 102 seem to me to be a basic qualification and not a specialized
exam on a topic only bigger computing facilities use. I'm absolutely fine with
additional exams for those topics and in fact I'd encourage creating those. But
keep the entry level certification as a first step into a professional career
on a broad and fundamental level for the student to get an understanding of the
foundation the systems he/she will work with.
Just my 2 cents worth of thought ;-)
Have a great day
R. Hilkenbach
PS.: Did anyone try to use nano on a smartphone or tablet with a ssh connection
to the server? Where are the cursor keys? PuTTY can have some really weird
keybindings too, so I did have to resort to the dreaded hjkl keys vi
understands...
Am Mittwoch, 7. August 2019, 02:59:44 MESZ hat Bryan J Smith
<[email protected]> Folgendes geschrieben:
Anselm Lingnau <[email protected]> wrote:
I suppose we will just have to agree to differ.
Are you sure? Ergo ...
You use the text editor of your choice.
Do any of us have a choice? In today's 'minimal install by default' secure
world?
Maybe I live in a really world, but my systems have busybox (w/vi), Vi (or ViM
Enhanced) or nothing. Period. I don't have nano installed on any system. I
have no other editors. Distros don't install it by default in minimal installs.
I must be an idiot, because I don't have choice. But it's not because I'm an
old guy that wants Vi.
but I'm for d*mn sure not using vi to write Python code, shell scripts, Ansible
playbooks,
LaTeX documents, or e-mail, because vi simply isn't my thing.
VisualStudio Code then ;)
(that's the new 'Emacs' counter it seems)
(In my experience as a Linux instructor, vi is actually very few people's
thing. The
people in my classes who actively liked or at least didn't mind vi usually had
previous Unix experience, but virtually everybody else simply detested it.
That alone should tell us something.)
Actually, it does.That experienced people use Vi. Commonality ... _and_ the
only thing on most systems these days. ;)
Unless we're testing for desktops and not Enterprise server environments with
minimal attack vectors.If so, I'll just tell people to skip LPIC-1 (okay, I
won't, but still ...)
I agree that there are Linux systems that by default come with vi and no other
editor. These systems are what “vimtutor” is for, because if you're in the
unenviable position of having to deal with such systems, 10 minutes to learn
the basics of vi are obviously time well spent. As far as I'm concerned we can
even acknowledge the importance of this by asking one (not three) questions on
the LPIC-1 exam.
Then why not remove _'interactive'_ altogether?That's my counter-counter, to
the counter that Vi isn't important.Let's just put it out there ... "forget
text editing" and even "forget interactive."
But if your real goal is productivity editing all sorts of
general text files on Linux (and I contend that it should be), then by all
means find an editor you like and are comfortable with. That editor may be
vi(m) or nano or GNU Emacs or Visual Studio Code or whatever other editor you
like, but that choice is personal and shouldn't force anyone else to do
anything.
But that has nothing to do with objectives and a junior sysadmin not having to
call up a senior just to edit a text file or, my real world, I have to either
come (when I can't remote in for 'airgap' reasons**) in or boot up and do it
for them (when I can).
**NOTE: I was purposely trying to avoid this, but I work in environments where
remoting in is not possible. DoD IAT 8570 for example. LPIC-1 and 2 are
qualifying certifications. It's a really big PITA when I not only have to get
a contractor to drive into a remote base, but the (censored) doesn't know Vi,
and I'm so 'teaching him over the phone.' That's why I f'ing want them to be
at least DoD IAT 8570 with LPIC-1!!!
> **P.S. Sounds like RPN for calculators, even today on-screen or a phone.
For the record, I've had an RPN calculator (or, these days, an RPN calculator
app on my smartphone) for ages, because I think that – unlike vi – it actually
is more logical and less error-prone than the alternative once you've bought
the basic idea. I don't proselytise, though.
Back at you ...
For the record, people use ViM Enhanced or X11, because I think that it is
actually more logical and error-prone than Vi once you've bought into the basic
idea.
Because 100% of what people learn in Vi applies 100% to ViM.
But then again I also like the Athena Widgets scrollbar, which was an
amazingly simple and powerful piece of UX design that didn't survive because
some moron at Apple thought that people should be able to get by with a one-
button mouse and pretty much everybody else thought that copying whatever
Apple was doing would be a good idea.
No (sorry, I gotcha now), Athena didn't survive because pixelated widgets don't
scale. ;)
I.e., just like Quartz took over Apple by 2001, Cario (used by GTK+ and Qt)
took over X11 by 2003.
Unfortunately for Microsoft, they not only couldn't get Windows Graphics
Foundations (WGF) into Visual Studio by 2007, but it performed horrendously and
required more GPU power.
That's why we still have WinForms pixelated crap on Windows, and Windows looks
like crap on 4K, or even 2.5K. But for those of us running Linux (or Mac),
when I'm at work on my 28" 4K monitor, people come over and say, "That's
beautiful! Can you make my desktop look like that!"
And I'm like, "No, it's not Windows, and Windows still doesn't have vector
graphics in a lot of its applications."
The other nice thing about RPN calculators, BTW, is that people won't “borrow”
them because they don't know how to get them to work ;^)
Back at you ...
The bad thing about Vi is that junior sysadmins that don't know it don't know
how to edit files when you're not able to get on-line, so they cannot get
anything to work, if they don't dork it up, especially when I cannot even see
their screen!
So you have to come in, or hire someone, who may or may not know Vi, and then
I'm 'teaching them over the phone.'
As I said, *REAL WORLD* people! ;)
- bjs
_______________________________________________
lpi-examdev mailing list
[email protected]
https://list.lpi.org/mailman/listinfo/lpi-examdev _______________________________________________
lpi-examdev mailing list
[email protected]
https://list.lpi.org/mailman/listinfo/lpi-examdev
