My, myâ¦were will it all end? ;) The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, and I wonât go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would like to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I have to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someoneâs performance. There arenât in fact 2 camps - inherently musical interpretation versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like Lucaâs performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. Firstly there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that it is understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones did. On the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a cellist begins training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught how to bow and phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style (be it Renais! sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well educated gamba player that would use a modern bow, modern or romantic phraising claiming he/she is HIP? I havenât. And this is due to the fact that lute history is a little bit more complicated than gambaâs, and not everything is absolutely clear untill the present day, and musicologists can not agree on various important details. Some use this as an excuse for unrestricted interpretations. And so far I wouldnât object. The only problem I have is to accept the situation when someone plays or interprets the way which is not in line with widespread knowledge and claims being HIP. âIâ should stand for INFORMED not IGNORED. So if one doesnât insist on using this magic label I feel happy and can listen solely to musical performance even if itâs a Vivaldi's amplified ukulele concerto accompanied by a symphonic orch! estra dressed in space outfits ;) If performance is convincing! â¦fantastic! But shouldnât we use HIP label a little bit more carefully? It means âin accordance with a present knowledgeâ, nothing more, nothing less. You do not have to live without all modern conveniences in order to be HIP. You cannot enter the same river twice as they say, so donât even try, but you can play in accordance to the available knowledge musically, and give phenomenal performances, which I wish us all :) JL
> On 11 Oct 2016, at 14:04, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > As a musician who did NOT come to the lute via classical guitar, I am > alternately amused and discouraged that the argument of guitar technique > versus an approved "authentic" lute technique is still an issue. This > argument is an unfortunate artifact of the late 20th lute fad, and those who > are still banging away on this issue are overlooking information in the > historical sources. > > For the record, I do not play single-strung lutes, and I understand from > reading historical source material that single-strung theorbos were just as > rare as single-strung archlutes. But they are an accepted modern compromise. > Likewise, I do not use nails, but Alessandro Piccinini and other historical > figures did. > > The truth is that there were and are many ways to approach historical music. > Until we learn to live without all modern conveniences - electronic tuners, > photocopied or digital scores, electric lights, indoor plumbing - the idea > that we can today decide on narrow parameters that describe historical > performance is a rather ludicrous exercise in fantasy. > > I have increasingly moved toward an attempt to perform only in > appropriate-sized spaces and I tend to put an enormous amount of effort in > producing historically integrated programs using the proper instruments. > Taste is a subjective and individual phenomenon but some of us have traversed > beyond the old guitar versus lute argument and have come to listen with an > open mind and judge a performance based upon its musicality. > > RA > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of > JarosÅaw Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:47 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto > > Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Lucaâs > performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions > like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence > for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence > speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize > for someone whoâll find any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is > used simultaneously, then one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because > it is much more guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical > education as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an > audience especially when playing in a group . > Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are > 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in > early music may feel a little bit confused. > Best > JL > > > > On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote: > >> Name it as you like, for me itââ¬â¢s a Liuto forte. There is another > >> version of RV93 played by Luca > >> herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog > >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog> > >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog > >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog> > Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog> > www.youtube.com > Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo lutenist > Luca Pianca. > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog> > Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog> > www.youtube.com > Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo lutenist > Luca Pianca. > > >> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this > >> type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca > >> uses fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall > >> sound (not only mics). > >> JL > >> > >> > >>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> on a good authority of RT. > >>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension. > >>> RT > >>> > >>> > >>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosà âaw Lipski wrote: > >>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory? > >>>> JL > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc > >>>>> Breton. > >>>>> RT > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosà âaw Lipski wrote: > >>>>>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but > >>>>>> a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, > >>>>>> Eric Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from > >>>>>> saying that this is a historical instrument - see > >>>>>> herehttp://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html > >>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> > >>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html > >>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html>> Itâââ‰â¢s easier > >>>>>> to play and was specially created with guitarists in mind. > <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> > LIUTO FORTE - The 21st Century Lute <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> > liuto-forte.com > Liuto forte â a Lute for the 21th Century. In 1999 the âPrix de > lâinnovation pour les instruments de musiqueâ was awarded in Paris for > the creation of the ... > <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> > LIUTO FORTE - The 21st Century Lute <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> > liuto-forte.com > Liuto forte â a Lute for the 21th Century. In 1999 the âPrix de > lâinnovation pour les instruments de musiqueâ was awarded in Paris for > the creation of the ... > > >>>>>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isnâââ‰â¢t really Baroque. > >>>>>> Having said that, his performance from musical point of view was > >>>>>> successful, and I am glad to see people talking about music on this > >>>>>> list :) > >>>>>> Best > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi <tio...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and > >>>>>>>> not. in D. > >>>>>>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the > >>>>>>>> violins. > >>>>>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A. I believe Giardino > >>>>>>> Armonico plays at A 415. Iâââ‰â¢m guessing the pitch is > >>>>>>> lowered on the Youtube video weâââ‰â¢re talking about. > >>>>>>> This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright bots. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hereâââ‰â¢s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the > >>>>>>> same concerto, sounding in D at A 415: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM > >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM> > Il Giardino Armonico - Vivaldi - Concerto in D Major for ... > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM> > www.youtube.com > Il Giardino Armonico - Vivaldi - Concerto in D Major for lute RV 93 Allegro - > Largo - Allegro > > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Of course, itâââ‰â¢s possible that the sound is adjusted > >>>>>>> up on this one. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>>>>>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html> > Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list > <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html> > www.cs.dartmouth.edu > Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting on and > off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get off the lute > mail list? > > >>>>>> -- > >>>> > >> > >> -- > > > > > --
