I've conceded that i do hear. I will also concede to the possibility of interaction and influence, but not necessarily to "based upon" without greater evidence. I do not believe you to be a con artist and would not want to imply such. (My "joke" reference was regarding your seemingly comical aggressiveness in defending this hypothesis and your interjection of emoticons. I perhaps read more into that than I should have.)
Note that you choose to adjust at which point the alignment begins. I have not been provided evidence that what follows the point of alignment is more than the coincidences of Indo-European musical constructs. You've not addressed my point that Indian classical music incorporates improvisation and that modern performances of such may have just as likely been influenced by hearing European renaissance composition. Supporting evidence may be confirmation in the writings of renaissance composers or their contemporaries alluding to a composition being directly based upon a raga or even titled to imply such. There is plenty of writing *about* music making from the era. I am bragging about nothing (the name, by the way, is pronounced like "bregg"), but simply trying to explain the origins of my personal perspective. My education is not necessarily any better than anybody else's, but may be different. I'm not certain I have much more to say on this. Eugene -----Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 10:30 AM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman Well then, let's make this public then. Yes, you are living in darkness for not wanting to hear the relation! You basically accuse me of being a con artist. This is not ok. I don't even want your money, I am *giving* you my discovery for pure joy of discovery. Let's make this a challenge (this for everyone). The Echo Fantasia is not really a difficult work for a normal Organist. If you know any Indian Classical musician, and an organist, have the latter play, and the former listen to it and have him choose a Raga. I bet it will be Aswari (Fantasia ex A = Aswari!), and I say he will be able to perform his Raga. Add a tabla player for the right rhythm. Eugene, there is no need to Braig about your "scientific education". If experiments don't convince you, what then? The discussion? The conclusion? Again, let this sink in: I did not edit the tracks! It works every time! If the Raga performance is longer, you can even loop the Fantasy and you get new aspects of the Raga matching them. The sections always match, and there are distinct functions of the segments, and these are even imitated in the Keyboard works, down to the exact gestures. Why are you not able to hear that? Dudes, the "Stretta" that appears after 1600 is *Indian*. But as it says in the Bible and countless other stories: Those who don't want to see the truth are blind. Or in this case, hear. I cannot say if my peers are like the blind ones or not. What I can say is that I will publish my findings one way or the other - for those who are not hearing it already, it probably must be. Have a great one. And thanks to all those who like my discovery. Be sure to follow my soundcloud for new pieces. I suspect Dowland is a key person, so I will try to find Ragas for the Fantasies. I will NOT post these here with the naysayers, and for fear of Arthur Ness getting a heart attack. Add me on soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/sets/early-17th-century-euro-indian Have a great day you all. I pray for the naysayers. Am 08.02.2018 um 16:11 schrieb Braig, Eugene: > Tristan wrote to me directly without copying the list. Out of respect to > whatever his intent may be, I will not forward his personal reply. I will, > however, share my own replies to him: > > "Yeah, I don't mind looking foolish. Given the semi-improvisatorial nature > of Indian classical music, any modern recording of raga to overlay any set > renaissance composition must be coincidental. Given humanity's aural > expectation of resolving to a cadence or nyasa [the Indian version of > cadence], I would assume a fair number of coincidences between the two would > occur. Assuming conclusive proof of causation (instead of simple > coincidence) without supporting documentation strikes me as fallacious. I am > a scientist on the day job and my parlance is skepticism." > > > Thinking more on this, if a modern recording of semi-improvised raga does > overlay a written renaissance fantasia by virtue of inspiration, that > inspiration is more likely to have been in the opposite direction of that > proposed. > > And, regarding why sections might roughly align between raga and renaissance > fantasia and that the inability to "hear" constitutes my own dwelling in > "darkness" (the tastiest criticisms are omitted here), this was followed by: > > "Coincidence. Music tends to be organized into 'sections' wherever it's > occurred. The expectation of evidence beyond coincidence doesn't feel like > darkness to me." > > > To the first note I had appended: > > "I would have copied this [reply] to the list, but am not certain why you > didn't, Tristan. I suspect it may be to contain a joke, to see how far it > can be carried among the uninitiated." > > > I will await the scholarly publication following peer review. > > My best wishes are with you all. > > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Braig, Eugene > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 9:19 AM > To: lutelist Net > Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman > > Aye. Thank you, gentlemen. > > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of G. C. > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 5:46 PM > To: lutelist Net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: John Bull's Fantasy XII is Raga Yaman > > I agree with you Arto. The first example is quite amazing in its > compatibility. Due to a common scale, the forced duet somehow sounds > compatible. I would say a musical quirk and a coincidence. How could > Indian music be compatible with Western renaissance. No chance! > And the other examples are even less impressive, even contradictive. > Nice try Tristan! :) > G. > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:32 PM, Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > wrote: > > Well, I listened carefully all those example combinations of Bull's > harpsichord pieces and the suggested similiar(?) raga performances, > and sincerely I could not find much in common between them, just two > different sound clips connected. Tristan von Neumann is of course > free to name me also "fool" even after I really listened his > medleys, but while I definitely strongly disagree his idea... ;-) > all the best, > Arto > On 07/02/18 07:53, Tristan von Neumann wrote: > > > Those who would even want to listen are fools. > Of course, those who wouldn't. > Am 07.02.2018 um 06:48 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: > > I can't believe almost no one is excited about this discovery. > All those who *still* doubt me, listen to this epic Raga Yaman > accompanied by John Bull's Fantasy XII. > I did nothing but adjust the pitch and placement of the tracks. > [2]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman > Those who would even want to listen are fools. > Like the pope who wouldn't look through Galilei's telescope. > Those who will listen will hear. > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:wi...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/fantasy-xii-raga-yaman > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
