I don't think anybody will win this debate so can ya'll just agree to disagree?
Sent from my iPad On 2011-03-10, at 14:19, objectwerks inc <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Mar 10, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: > >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2011, at 8:32 AM, objectwerks inc wrote: >>> >>> You still do not get it Chris. This has nothing to do with the listserve >>> and how it is configured. >> >> You are correct. It has nothing to do with the listserve. They are using >> List-Post which is what they should do. Apple Mail is ignoring List-Post and >> provides no easy or obvious mechanism to use it. And that is related, >> because it it did, I would certainly use that rather than Reply All. >> > > List-Post is an informational header only that tells you to which address you > should send to to post to this list. There are a whole raft of List-* headers > that are informational. > >>> This has to do with emails straight between two parties, that you insist >>> on sending twice to the same person because you are too lazy to use email >>> appropriately and trim out addresses so that the same person is not in the >>> list twice, which happens due to the way Apple Mail handles REPLY ALL when >>> there is a REPLY-TO header set (which might be considered a bug on Apple >>> Mail part, debatable of course, but since you want to use Apple Mail you >>> need to work around its limitations). >> >> >> It is not "appropriate" to trim out addresses, anymore than it is >> "inappropriate" to not trim them out. The request is invalid and it's also >> denied. It will continue to be denied. > > You are responsible for sending emails that you hit the SEND button for. > Gratuitous and non appropriate use of REPLY ALL is your problem and not the > lists problem. Just because you can use REPLY ALL to get around a roadblock > set by the list owners to cut down on stupid posts does not mean that you > should and have the right to send to everyone that shows up in the REPLY ALL > to: and cc: lists. > > When you hit REPLY ALL that does not mean that every address there needs to > be sent to. It is YOUR responsibility to use the tools appropriately and to > trim the TO and CC lists appropriately to what you are trying to do. > > >> >>> However, the list was set up to reply to the post sender, and not to the >>> list, by default, so that you would have to THINK about what you were >>> posting and whether an answer was appropriate for the poster only or for >>> the whole list to see. If you wanted the WHOLE LIST to see your answer to >>> a list post, they purposefully made it so that you had to type the list >>> name in to the TO or CC field manually. >> >> I doubt that was their thought process considering the server is set up >> exactly correct per RFC. Had they been thinking this way, they would set >> List-Post to No which then would cause the behavior you suggest. But clearly >> List-Post is an invitation for automatic replies back to the list, it's a >> local configuration issue. Not their problem and they have no say in the >> matter in any event. That kind of micromanagement of humans, as well as >> Apple Mail's ignorance of List-Post, leads people to say "screw it, I'm >> pushing Reply All". I will not trim, it's too much effort, call it lazy, I >> still have no idea which email you want me to trim and I'm absolutely not >> manually trimming just one of your email addresses. Nothing in RFC requires >> or even remotely suggests, that I or the email application to do this. > > Again, List-Post is an informational header. The way I described is exactly > the way the list was set up PER THE OMNI PEOPLE who posted about it when this > subject came up several years ago. > > Nothing in the RFC suggests you should use REPLY ALL to get around the list > roadblock that was purposefully set there either. > > Email clients are not required to worry about List-Post header because it is > informational only and probably > >> >>> This was done on purpose this way to try and keep crap me-to posts and >>> similar off the list. The problem is that too many people just hit REPLY >>> ALL without realizing what that does and send crap posts directly to too >>> many other people who were participating in the discussion, directly. >>> Bypassing the list. They do this without looking at who they are sending >>> to and trimming appropriately. Which is the problem you have. >> >> And why do they hit Reply All? Because there isn't an equally easy and >> obvious alternative. If there were an alternative people would most likely >> use it. So you can say that cars accelerate because a human pushed down on a >> gas pedal and be correct, but it's wrong for you to say the engine had >> nothing to do with it. They are all part of a system. > > There is an alternative. Hit reply, edit the To: to say > [email protected] -- I am sure Mail.App will auto fill it in for you > as soon as you get enough keys typed. > > >> >> >>> When Bart posted his question, I replied to him directly, and not on the >>> list, as it was not germane to the list. Of course, you just hit REPLY ALL >>> and blasted your answer to the list even when not appropriate, plus >>> directly to Bart. Think about it. >> >> It's a list. I'm on dozens of lists with hundreds of daily emails. I know >> how to manage them. Apparently you don't. You're the only person I've had a >> list argument with in, I don't know, probably five years, that was unrelated >> to the topic of the list. > > And you are using the list WRONG. I don't care about how your other lists > work. This one purposefully works differently. > > Here is a post from OMNI GROUP that explains it. > > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/archive/macosx-dev/2003-November/048915.html > > >> >>> I purposefully posted this to you and the list (but manually cut Bart out) >>> since I figured it would be good to explain why the list is set up the way >>> it is. It is good information for people to know. And how to >>> appropriately deal with the list and make replies -- which is not to just >>> REPLY ALL without trimming. >> >> You have no idea how the list is set up so it's conjecture on your part why >> it's set up the way it is. I will continue to Reply All without trimming. >> That is my default behavior and it isn't getting changed. There is a vastly >> better chance that Apple Mail in Lion will honor List-Post in a sensible way >> than me trimming individual email addresses. > > I do have an idea how the list was set up. I have a long memory and the > topic has come up before. I used Google for about 3 min and was able to > find a post (macosx-dev list but all the omni lists are set this way) > > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/archive/macosx-dev/2003-November/048915.html > > > >> >> >> Chris Murphy > > _______________________________________________ > MacOSX-admin mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-admin _______________________________________________ MacOSX-admin mailing list [email protected] http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-admin
