Marie: someone's screen reader holding their hand is precisely the reason that VO hints are cool as an option. Whoever needs it can have it, whoever doesn't switches it off. It does no harm because the hints themselves are teaching whoever hears them to use VO to interact with Mac OS as closely to the way that their sighted peers do. The editing thing is a whole different kettle of fish though in my mind at least.
Scott: ok, I'll think beyond what I stated. To liken it to something, as I know you're a musician, let's compare learning a new OS environment to tackling a completely new genre of music shall we? Your fundamentals are all there, notes rhythm and tempo, just like menues buttons and check boxes. But if you came to try to learn a song that was in a wierd time signiture, one that jarred your inbuilt metronome and felt weird to play, out of respect for the vision that the creator had in their head, you wouldn't email to bitch at them for not making their song a nice easy 4/4 time sig and expect their next album to include Scott's song surely! You'd buckle down for some good old fashioned practice, it'd sink in and become natural, you'd have learned something and unlocked a few new rhythm fundamentals in the process. Just like Marie stuck at it and is now using her mac to edit text exactly the same way as Josephine Public does, she might even be a bit snappier at it because of the extra work that went in for all I know. As you say, the NFB will love this feature. Trouble is, there hasn't been a review from any organisations like that written by someone who could honestly be called a compitent Mac user yet to my knowledge, so really who are they to judge! I suppose what I'm asking is, where do you draw the line? Personally, when it comes to a mainstream company providing this level of access, I'd like to have seen deviations and acceptions from standard Mac OS behaviour only when it's absolutely necessary to make or break whether something is usable or not with VO. Apple being Apple, I'm surprised they moved that line. While the NFB or anybody else who emailed Apple asking for this feature thinks that they have the grounds to expect it to be added for no real reason other than they're used to the Jaws genre, we're teatering on the top of a slippery slope IMHO. I don't want VO to get to version 10 and be what Jaws is now usability-wise, because part of the reason I enjoyed switching so much was that I had to buy and learn a new OS, not a new screen reader as well as a new OS. I'm probably overly ranty about this because the one task which prevents me from being a Windows exile also happens to be 100% dependent on the big J, and while there's some amazing scripting going on over there, I don't feel like I'm running at anywhere near my previous productivity yet. But underneath the rant, there's a principal there, one that's partly to blame for the way things are currently in the specialist market. That's all I was saying... I think. On 8/30/09, Marie Howarth <[email protected]> wrote: > > think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to > accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it is > meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are here > now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others need their > screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. as I > stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) > > On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> >> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of people who >> bitched and complained about this whole editing issue and I believe >> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or some >> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people >> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for those >> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this point >> because I remember clearly the noise about this editing issue. I see >> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, whatever >> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there are >> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It is an >> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth >> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have stated >> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is not a >> standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it obviously didn't >> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an >> option. >> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >> >>> >>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. >>> >>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there are >>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, but >>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the >>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get to a >>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and >>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. >>> >>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context >>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way shorter >>> learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and trying to >>> apply >>> things to a ton of situations at once. It's annoying that they're >>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going to >>> thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will developers who >>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled email >>> from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to their >>> applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the difference >>> between what works and what doesn't, it gives them instructions >>> equally as precise as that email from the VI user would in most >>> cases. >>> >>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get this >>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason the >>> option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't in any >>> way >>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that >>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping oppinion >>> like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, still use >>> Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I make my fair >>> share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't done any in a while. >>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. I >>> doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease their >>> progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's suggested, >>> human's >>> just don't work that way, for the most part we're creatures of habit >>> even if they're bad ones. >>> >>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a feature >>> be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, I'm not sure >>> they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I disagree with the >>> feature and what's potentially at stake here to a sighted mac user, >>> and she point blank didn't get it. I'm not sure that anyone who >>> hasn't had to appreciate how cool mainstream technology that works >>> for >>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they >>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing they >>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. >>> >>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side of >>> the pond... >>> Scott >>> >>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and you >>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the only >>>> plus >>>> side is that for those who want to make the transition and really >>>> find >>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to ease >>>> their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree with you, >>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone make >>>> the transition. >>>> >>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly >>>>> remind me >>>>> of windows are as follows. >>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. >>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, especially >>>>> when >>>>> it already says edit text. >>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter intuitive >>>>> and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look to sighties. >>>>> >>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they are >>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help progression >>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so >>>>> glad I >>>>> did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. >>>>> >>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful to >>>>> apple >>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >> >> > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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