Hi Donna,
I use XP myself and will continue to do so for the time being. I
had tried Vista for the sake of knowledge and curiosity and I'll
probably give Windows 7 a shot as far as the desire to know what that
is like as well. However, when it comes to using Windows when I have
a need to, XP will continue to get the job done for me.
Now, as for the NFB, it is not specific to them or any
organization. Unfortunately, VoiceOver bashing has come from all of
the major blindness groups at one time or another, dating back to the
AFB when Tiger first came out. The NFB article you note is only one
of a few publications that obviously did its best to discredit Apple
and VoiceOver. Frankly, it is not a matter of taking a position.
There are clearly special interests involved, which, I think, do not
have to be spelled out, since the majority of blind computer users are
utilizing Windows and the implications can be taken from there. As
the saying goes, follow the money trail.
My experience I referred to mentioned an NFB show, but I have
encountered the same sort of negative reactions at other trade shows
having nothing to do with specific blindness organizations. Whether
these individuals were members of any, I have no idea. I was just
pointing out that it is not necessarily the Mac community that
demonstrates such hostility and shameful behavior. And you are
absolutely correct. As the saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right
and such nastiness should not be acceptable from any quarter,
especially over something as trivial in life as ones choice of
computer access. Similarly, however, one should also not take
immediate offense or the like if someone offers an opinion about a
given operating system that is supported by experience, documentation
or general knowledge. In other words, as I said, I do take my share
of shots at Windows, but I always keep my remarks in line with reality
and experience and what is being also talked about in technical
articles and forums. As far as I am concerned, there is no company,
OS or product that is perfect, regardless of whether it is Apple,
Microsoft or anyone else.
Take Care
John Panarese
On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> First, a couple of points to provide some context. I have never
> used Windows vista. I never understood why anyone installed that
> OS, it got bad reviews before it was ever released. My PC's sstill
> running XP. I also have never had any affiliation with NFB, and I
> have no desire to do so. If an organization takes a hostile posture
> against the Mac or anything else, well, that's sort of what
> organizations do--they take positions on things. If you don't like
> the things than an organization stands for, don't join. Or if you
> want, form another group to oppose them. But they represent only
> their organization, nothingmore. I thought their interview of the
> Mac was frankly stupid. The person who did it was not nearly
> experienced enough on the Mac to do anything more than put forth an
> initial opinion, and barely that NFB figured this out apparently, as
> they ended up with egg on their face having to recant some of the
> statements they'd made.
>
> Second, and I know I'm going to sound like all of our mothers, does
> the fact that Johny or susie did it make it right? I don't doubt
> that John has experienced the hostility that he described. But the
> fact that someone else is being a jerk doesn't give you or me the
> right to be a jerk too.
>
> Lastly, the intent of my message was never to "defend Windows" as
> Marie claimed, nor to make any evaluation of one operating system
> over the other. My point was simply that having more choices is
> better for the blind community as a whole, and people who don't
> dislike Windows aren't idiots any more than are those who choose
> Mac. Windows and Mac are two perfectly viable choices for blind
> users, and none of us has the right to act as though s/he is
> superior over anyone else because of the choice that we make, or
> because we don't despise the other choice. I'm telling you what I
> know from personal experience. There are many folks out there who
> either don't want to participate in Mac lists, or who stay away from
> the Mac because of attitudes they see from members of the Mac
> community. So, by being condescending, you're just shooting
> yoursellves in the foot, if what you want is for the Mac to hold a
> more prominent place in the blind user community. As I said before,
> let's just support each other, whatever OS we choose. In the long
> run it'll be better for everyone.
>
> Ok, all this said, this is my last post on this topic. I think this
> thread has run its course.
> Best,
> Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Eickmeier <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 3:02 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm?
>
>
> Well said John. When Vista came out, I wasn't impressed with it
> either, based on what I was hearing from people that were running it.
> I'd heard so many good things about the Mac, and the fact that I
> would have access to the mac right out of the box, without having to
> pay extra costs for a screen reader on top of the price of the mac,
> was also very compelling. As a result, I made the switch back in
> February of 2007, and haven't looked back since. I did use Windows
> occasionally and did have it installed in a VM, but I think with the
> improvements in Snow Leopard, i'll be using it even less.
> On Aug 30, 2009, at 12:51 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>
>>
>> I will disagree with Anyone who claims that there is no
>> hostility or arrogance from the Windows community towards the Mac
>> and,
>> specifically, VoiceOver. Since VoiceOver became available in
>> Tiger, I
>> have encountered the very behavior and attitudes from Windows users
>> towards the Mac as I have read some Windows users accuse Mac users of
>> showing towards Windows. In fact, at NFB shows, this mentality has
>> probably been the strongest. There is a mindset among hardcore
>> members of the blindness organization of "circling the wagons" or
>> "protecting ones own", and I think anyone who tries to claim
>> otherwise
>> is not living on this planet. Sadly, I think Snow Leopard is only
>> going to create more shrill and vitriolic responses in regard to
>> Apple's efforts, and never any slightest acknowledgement of the
>> "good"
>> it is doing for the blind.
>>
>> Now, the one thing that is apparently overlooked is that many of
>> us on this list and others who have been using the Mac are either
>> former Windows users or, like myself, still use Windows. I will
>> admit
>> without hesitation that I take shots at Windows and openly criticize
>> Microsoft, but having used Windows for some 13 years, I surely feel
>> that I am qualified to do so and can speak about the shortcomings of
>> Windows quite knowledgeably. This is not arrogance or anything else
>> on my part. This is simply experience and the difference I have
>> found
>> in using the Mac. Yes, the "dark side" might be too strong of a
>> term,
>> yet, at the same time, it is like night and day. No viruses, spam,
>> crashes and other Windows instability issues Windows users just seem
>> to tolerate and accept as being "normal". If anything, Vista
>> completely turned me off from windows forever, and I am not
>> impressed
>> by Windows 7 at all at this point.
>>
>> With that all said, however, again, it must also be noted that
>> companies like, GW Micro, Serotek and Freedom Scientific have done a
>> considerable amount of good for the blind. Windows screen reader
>> developers often receive a great deal of criticism and grumbling from
>> their own user base. I know that accessibility and Microsoft are
>> often quite challenging from what I have been privately told by both
>> GW Micro and FS people. Thus, I would never be one to take anything
>> away from Windows access efforts, as that was my introduction to
>> computers and it carried me through may years. Many folks, either by
>> circumstance or choice, still use Windows, and that will probably not
>> change, other than, perhaps, the choice part of the equation.
>>
>> In regard to the three features that are the topic of this
>> thread, I don't personally find a need to go back to the old Windows
>> way of editing. It was difficult to become adjusted to the Mac way
>> at
>> the start, but it makes far more sense to me than the Windows way. I
>> don't need a webpage read to me in its entirety at any time, but I
>> really think the summarization of the elements on a site is
>> particularly useful. However, the one thing that us longer time Mac
>> users and even many newer ones understand, the beauty of the Mac
>> experience is that we are given more than one way to accomplish a
>> task. If these additions to Snow Leopard assist and ease the
>> transition for a Windows user to the Mac, overall, I think that it is
>> a good thing. Customization has increased quite a bit in Snow
>> Leopard, so whatever is comfortable to you is obviously what you use.
>> This also goes, btw, for your choice of access tools as well, whether
>> it be the Mac, Windows or Linux. It is just a matter of myself
>> having
>> chosen the Mac way as being superior in more than enough ways to make
>> it my tool of choice.
>>
>>
>> Take Care
>>
>> John Panarese
>>
>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 8:21 AM, James & Nash wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> No you are right, NFB and other blindnes organizations who
>>> supposedly hvae
>>> our best interests at heart are very narrow minded when it coems to
>>> technological matters as well as others.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Les Kriegler" <[email protected]>
>>> To: <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:09 PM
>>> Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Donna and All,
>>>>
>>>> I'll offer my opinion as a current Windows user. As I enter
>>>> MacLand, one
>>>> of
>>>> the most valuable benefits of this list has been what those of you
>>>> who are
>>>> current Mac users offer, and that's perspective. I have a pretty
>>>> good
>>>> idea
>>>> of the chalenges that await. For my part, I will try and learn the
>>>> editing
>>>> ways of Apple. If I can get used to it, I'll be better off in the
>>>> long
>>>> run.
>>>> If it becomes too frustrating, I'll use the Windows editing
>>>> feature. I
>>>> suspect the first will apply based on what a number of you have
>>>> said. I'm
>>>> certain as a new Mac user, I'll do exactly what Donna has
>>>> described,
>>>> especially since I'll be back and forth between Windows and Apple.
>>>> That's
>>>> okay, because it's unavoidable. I do like having choices, as I
>>>> suspect
>>>> most
>>>> who have used both operating systems do. Finally, just for the
>>>> record, I
>>>> think a couple of you came down too hard on Marie. I didn't take
>>>> any
>>>> offense to her comments. It sounded like she responded to the
>>>> perceived
>>>> pressure that NFB placed on Apple to implement this change. NFB
>>>> hasn't
>>>> exactly been at all complimentary of Apple's efforts, and that's
>>>> really
>>>> unfortunate. The fact that any of us who are coming over from
>>>> Windows are
>>>> willing to do this shows that we are open to a different way of
>>>> doing
>>>> things, and that's to be commended.
>>>>
>>>> Les
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donna Goodin
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:27 AM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I completely agree Max. Editing wasn't hard for me to learn, but
>>>> web
>>>> browsing and getting used to where certain things are in the system
>>>> has
>>>> been
>>>> more of a challenge. And at least five times a day I still press
>>>> Enter
>>>> instead of Command-O to open a file or launch an app. And
>>>> conversely, it's
>>>> also gotten to the point where when I'm on my Windows machine, I
>>>> try and
>>>> press Command-shift-D to send an email message. I guess that's
>>>> just the
>>>> nature of moving back and forth between two systems. I think the
>>>> more
>>>> choices we as blind users have, the better, and I'd encourage
>>>> anyone to
>>>> just
>>>> find the one that is the best fit for them.
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Donna
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Maxwell Ivey Jr. <[email protected]>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:44 PM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Donna; It could have just been me, but that is the point.
>>>> there are
>>>> people out there who have been doing it one way for so long that
>>>> any
>>>> change
>>>> can be frustrating. I remember how many times i deleted the wrong
>>>> character
>>>> or inserted a character in the wrong spot and had to do it over.
>>>> Now, I'm
>>>> used to it. And the few times i use the windows computer I have to
>>>> remember
>>>> things like pressing the spacebar before entering text in a form
>>>> field.
>>>> Mac
>>>> is the way to go. Just wish we could convince the makers of adobe,
>>>> flash,
>>>> eudora, and others that we can't currently use on the mac. Take
>>>> care, Max
>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:29 PM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I guess we all have our things. Ironically, the adjustment
>>>>> to
>>>>> editing text has been one of the easier parts of my adjustment to
>>>>> the
>>>>> Mac.
>>>>> *smile*
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Donna
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell
>>>>>> Ivey
>>>>>> Jr.
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:16 PM
>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks donna; only wish my transition from doss to windows had
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> as easy. That was a real mind cramp sort of thing. Take care,
>>>>>> Max
>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice post, Max.
>>>>>>> Donna
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell
>>>>>>>> Ivey
>>>>>>>> Jr.
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:29 PM
>>>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello; Just speaking for myself the hardest adjustment i had
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>> when moving to a mac was getting used to the way you have to
>>>>>>>> edit
>>>>>>>> text. Now, that I understand it, it is second nature; but it
>>>>>>>> was a
>>>>>>>> real headache in the beginning. Another one that was a tough
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> to get my mind around was not having multiple windows in my
>>>>>>>> browser. I finallly found out that you can have multiple
>>>>>>>> finder
>>>>>>>> and safari windows you just cycle through them differently. It
>>>>>>>> sounds like apple was doing its best to listen and adapt to
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> people were saying were short comings in voiceover. To me this
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a good thing. Maybe they didn't get this one issue right,
>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>> believe they continually make an honest effort to give us the
>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> accessible easiest to use product out there. I'm still
>>>>>>>> planning to
>>>>>>>> wait on snow lepard. You know
>>>>>> why?
>>>>>>>> Its because of all the times I upgraded in windows and found
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> were worse instead of better. Its for all the times I kept
>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> previous version of software out of fear that the next one
>>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>>>> work with jaws. So, thanks to apple for voiceover and their
>>>>>>>> continuing commitment to universal access. You all take care,
>>>>>>>> Max
>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Marie Howarth wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the
>>>>>>>>> way it
>>>>>>>>> is meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> here now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone
>>>>>>>>> needs. as
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of
>>>>>>>>>> people who bitched and complained about this whole editing
>>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> point because I remember clearly the noise about this editing
>>>>>>>>>> issue. I
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here,
>>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because
>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason.
>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not
>>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have
>>>>>> stated
>>>>>>>>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> not a standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it
>>>>>>>>>> obviously
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it
>>>>>>>>>> is an
>>>>>>>>>> option.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as
>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their
>>>>>>>>>>> content,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could
>>>>>>>>>>> get to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing.
>>>>>>>>>>> Context
>>>>>>>>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way
>>>>>>>>>>> shorter learning curve usually than reading a whole manual
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> trying to apply things to a ton of situations at once. It's
>>>>>>>>>>> annoying that
>>>>>> they're
>>>>>>>>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are
>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>> to thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will
>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a
>>>>>>>>>>> disgruntled
>>>>>>>>>>> email from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to
>>>>>>>>>>> their applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the
>>>>>>>>>>> difference between what works and what doesn't, it gives
>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> instructions equally as precise as that email from the VI
>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>> would in most cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't
>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the
>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>> the option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping
>>>>>>>>>>> oppinion like that, I should say that I was raised on
>>>>>>>>>>> Windows,
>>>>>>>>>>> still use Windows more often than many on here I expect,
>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>> make my fair share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I
>>>>>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>>>>>> done any in a while.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as
>>>>>>>>>>> cheating.
>>>>>>>>>>> I doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease
>>>>>>>>>>> their progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's
>>>>>>>>>>> suggested, human's just don't work that way, for the most
>>>>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>>> we're creatures of
>>>>>>>> habit
>>>>>>>>>>> even if they're bad ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking
>>>>>>>>>>> that a
>>>>>>>>>>> feature be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any
>>>>>>>>>>> case,
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I
>>>>>>>>>>> disagree with the feature and what's potentially at stake
>>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>>> to a sighted mac user, and she point blank didn't get it.
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> not sure that anyone who hasn't had to appreciate how cool
>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream technology that
>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not,
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best
>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this
>>>>>>>>>>> side
>>>>>>>>>>> of the pond...
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the
>>>>>>>>>>>> only plus side is that for those who want to make the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transition and
>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> ease their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> agree
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> you,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> make the transition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> horribly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remind me of windows are as follows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially when it already says edit text.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive and doesn't teach the vi community how it would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to sighties.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help
>>>>>>>> progression
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> glad I did. mac is not windows, when will people realise
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>> grateful
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release
>>>>>>>> Date:
>>>>>>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature
>>>> database 4381 (20090830) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature
>>>> database 4381 (20090830) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature
>>>> database 4381 (20090830) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
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