No you are right, NFB and other blindnes organizations who supposedly hvae our best interests at heart are very narrow minded when it coems to technological matters as well as others. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Kriegler" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:09 PM Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm?
> > Hi Donna and All, > > I'll offer my opinion as a current Windows user. As I enter MacLand, one > of > the most valuable benefits of this list has been what those of you who are > current Mac users offer, and that's perspective. I have a pretty good > idea > of the chalenges that await. For my part, I will try and learn the > editing > ways of Apple. If I can get used to it, I'll be better off in the long > run. > If it becomes too frustrating, I'll use the Windows editing feature. I > suspect the first will apply based on what a number of you have said. I'm > certain as a new Mac user, I'll do exactly what Donna has described, > especially since I'll be back and forth between Windows and Apple. That's > okay, because it's unavoidable. I do like having choices, as I suspect > most > who have used both operating systems do. Finally, just for the record, I > think a couple of you came down too hard on Marie. I didn't take any > offense to her comments. It sounded like she responded to the perceived > pressure that NFB placed on Apple to implement this change. NFB hasn't > exactly been at all complimentary of Apple's efforts, and that's really > unfortunate. The fact that any of us who are coming over from Windows are > willing to do this shows that we are open to a different way of doing > things, and that's to be commended. > > Les > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donna Goodin > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:27 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm? > > > I completely agree Max. Editing wasn't hard for me to learn, but web > browsing and getting used to where certain things are in the system has > been > more of a challenge. And at least five times a day I still press Enter > instead of Command-O to open a file or launch an app. And conversely, it's > also gotten to the point where when I'm on my Windows machine, I try and > press Command-shift-D to send an email message. I guess that's just the > nature of moving back and forth between two systems. I think the more > choices we as blind users have, the better, and I'd encourage anyone to > just > find the one that is the best fit for them. > Take care, > Donna > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maxwell Ivey Jr. <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:44 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? > > > Hi Donna; It could have just been me, but that is the point. there are > people out there who have been doing it one way for so long that any > change > can be frustrating. I remember how many times i deleted the wrong > character > or inserted a character in the wrong spot and had to do it over. Now, I'm > used to it. And the few times i use the windows computer I have to > remember > things like pressing the spacebar before entering text in a form field. > Mac > is the way to go. Just wish we could convince the makers of adobe, flash, > eudora, and others that we can't currently use on the mac. Take care, Max > On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:29 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: > >> >> Well, I guess we all have our things. Ironically, the adjustment to >> editing text has been one of the easier parts of my adjustment to the >> Mac. >> *smile* >> Take care, >> Donna >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell Ivey >>> Jr. >>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:16 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>> >>> >>> Thanks donna; only wish my transition from doss to windows had been >>> as easy. That was a real mind cramp sort of thing. Take care, Max >>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Nice post, Max. >>>> Donna >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell Ivey >>>>> Jr. >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:29 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello; Just speaking for myself the hardest adjustment i had to >>> make >>>>> when moving to a mac was getting used to the way you have to edit >>>>> text. Now, that I understand it, it is second nature; but it was a >>>>> real headache in the beginning. Another one that was a tough one >>>>> to get my mind around was not having multiple windows in my >>>>> browser. I finallly found out that you can have multiple finder >>>>> and safari windows you just cycle through them differently. It >>>>> sounds like apple was doing its best to listen and adapt to what >>>>> people were saying were short comings in voiceover. To me this is >>>>> a good thing. Maybe they didn't get this one issue right, but I >>>>> believe they continually make an honest effort to give us the most >>>>> accessible easiest to use product out there. I'm still planning to >>>>> wait on snow lepard. You know >>> why? >>>>> Its because of all the times I upgraded in windows and found things >>>>> were worse instead of better. Its for all the times I kept using >>> the >>>>> previous version of software out of fear that the next one wouldn't >>>>> work with jaws. So, thanks to apple for voiceover and their >>>>> continuing commitment to universal access. You all take care, Max >>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to >>>>>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it >>>>>> is meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are >>>>>> here now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others >>>>>> need >>> their >>>>>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. as >>> I >>>>>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of >>>>>>> people who bitched and complained about this whole editing issue >>>>>>> and I >>> believe >>>>>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or >>>>> some >>>>>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people >>>>>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for >>>>> those >>>>>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this >>>>>>> point because I remember clearly the noise about this editing >>>>>>> issue. I >>>>> see >>>>>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, >>>>> whatever >>>>>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there >>> are >>>>>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It >>> is >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth >>>>>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have >>> stated >>>>>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is >>>>>>> not a standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it >>>>>>> obviously >>> didn't >>>>>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an >>>>>>> option. >>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there >>>>> are >>>>>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, >>>>> but >>>>>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the >>>>>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get to >>> a >>>>>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and >>>>>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context >>>>>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way >>>>>>>> shorter learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and >>>>>>>> trying to apply things to a ton of situations at once. It's >>>>>>>> annoying that >>> they're >>>>>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going >>>>>>>> to thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will >>>>>>>> developers >>> who >>>>>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled >>>>>>>> email from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to >>>>>>>> their applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the >>>>>>>> difference between what works and what doesn't, it gives them >>>>>>>> instructions equally as precise as that email from the VI user >>>>>>>> would in most cases. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get >>> this >>>>>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason >>>>>>>> the option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't >>>>>>>> in >>> any >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that >>>>>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping >>>>>>>> oppinion like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, >>>>>>>> still use Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I >>>>>>>> make my fair share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't >>>>>>>> done any in a while. >>>>>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. >>>>>>>> I doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease >>>>>>>> their progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's >>>>>>>> suggested, human's just don't work that way, for the most part >>>>>>>> we're creatures of >>>>> habit >>>>>>>> even if they're bad ones. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a >>>>>>>> feature be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, >>>>>>>> I'm not sure they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I >>>>>>>> disagree with the feature and what's potentially at stake here >>>>>>>> to a sighted mac user, and she point blank didn't get it. I'm >>>>>>>> not sure that anyone who hasn't had to appreciate how cool >>>>>>>> mainstream technology that >>> works >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they >>>>>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing >>>>> they >>>>>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side >>>>>>>> of the pond... >>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and >>>>> you >>>>>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the >>>>>>>>> only plus side is that for those who want to make the >>>>>>>>> transition and >>> really >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to >>>>>>>>> ease their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree >>>>>>>>> with >>>>> you, >>>>>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone >>>>>>>>> make the transition. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly >>>>>>>>>> remind me of windows are as follows. >>>>>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. >>>>>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, >>>>>>>>>> especially when it already says edit text. >>>>>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter >>>>>>>>>> intuitive and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look >>>>>>>>>> to sighties. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they >>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help >>>>> progression >>>>>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so >>>>>>>>>> glad I did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful >>> to >>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >>>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 4381 (20090830) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 4381 (20090830) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 4381 (20090830) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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