I will disagree with Anyone who claims that there is no
hostility or arrogance from the Windows community towards the Mac and,
specifically, VoiceOver. Since VoiceOver became available in Tiger, I
have encountered the very behavior and attitudes from Windows users
towards the Mac as I have read some Windows users accuse Mac users of
showing towards Windows. In fact, at NFB shows, this mentality has
probably been the strongest. There is a mindset among hardcore
members of the blindness organization of "circling the wagons" or
"protecting ones own", and I think anyone who tries to claim otherwise
is not living on this planet. Sadly, I think Snow Leopard is only
going to create more shrill and vitriolic responses in regard to
Apple's efforts, and never any slightest acknowledgement of the "good"
it is doing for the blind.
Now, the one thing that is apparently overlooked is that many of
us on this list and others who have been using the Mac are either
former Windows users or, like myself, still use Windows. I will admit
without hesitation that I take shots at Windows and openly criticize
Microsoft, but having used Windows for some 13 years, I surely feel
that I am qualified to do so and can speak about the shortcomings of
Windows quite knowledgeably. This is not arrogance or anything else
on my part. This is simply experience and the difference I have found
in using the Mac. Yes, the "dark side" might be too strong of a term,
yet, at the same time, it is like night and day. No viruses, spam,
crashes and other Windows instability issues Windows users just seem
to tolerate and accept as being "normal". If anything, Vista
completely turned me off from windows forever, and I am not impressed
by Windows 7 at all at this point.
With that all said, however, again, it must also be noted that
companies like, GW Micro, Serotek and Freedom Scientific have done a
considerable amount of good for the blind. Windows screen reader
developers often receive a great deal of criticism and grumbling from
their own user base. I know that accessibility and Microsoft are
often quite challenging from what I have been privately told by both
GW Micro and FS people. Thus, I would never be one to take anything
away from Windows access efforts, as that was my introduction to
computers and it carried me through may years. Many folks, either by
circumstance or choice, still use Windows, and that will probably not
change, other than, perhaps, the choice part of the equation.
In regard to the three features that are the topic of this
thread, I don't personally find a need to go back to the old Windows
way of editing. It was difficult to become adjusted to the Mac way at
the start, but it makes far more sense to me than the Windows way. I
don't need a webpage read to me in its entirety at any time, but I
really think the summarization of the elements on a site is
particularly useful. However, the one thing that us longer time Mac
users and even many newer ones understand, the beauty of the Mac
experience is that we are given more than one way to accomplish a
task. If these additions to Snow Leopard assist and ease the
transition for a Windows user to the Mac, overall, I think that it is
a good thing. Customization has increased quite a bit in Snow
Leopard, so whatever is comfortable to you is obviously what you use.
This also goes, btw, for your choice of access tools as well, whether
it be the Mac, Windows or Linux. It is just a matter of myself having
chosen the Mac way as being superior in more than enough ways to make
it my tool of choice.
Take Care
John Panarese
On Aug 30, 2009, at 8:21 AM, James & Nash wrote:
>
> No you are right, NFB and other blindnes organizations who
> supposedly hvae
> our best interests at heart are very narrow minded when it coems to
> technological matters as well as others.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Les Kriegler" <krieg...@nycap.rr.com>
> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:09 PM
> Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm?
>
>
>>
>> Hi Donna and All,
>>
>> I'll offer my opinion as a current Windows user. As I enter
>> MacLand, one
>> of
>> the most valuable benefits of this list has been what those of you
>> who are
>> current Mac users offer, and that's perspective. I have a pretty
>> good
>> idea
>> of the chalenges that await. For my part, I will try and learn the
>> editing
>> ways of Apple. If I can get used to it, I'll be better off in the
>> long
>> run.
>> If it becomes too frustrating, I'll use the Windows editing
>> feature. I
>> suspect the first will apply based on what a number of you have
>> said. I'm
>> certain as a new Mac user, I'll do exactly what Donna has described,
>> especially since I'll be back and forth between Windows and Apple.
>> That's
>> okay, because it's unavoidable. I do like having choices, as I
>> suspect
>> most
>> who have used both operating systems do. Finally, just for the
>> record, I
>> think a couple of you came down too hard on Marie. I didn't take any
>> offense to her comments. It sounded like she responded to the
>> perceived
>> pressure that NFB placed on Apple to implement this change. NFB
>> hasn't
>> exactly been at all complimentary of Apple's efforts, and that's
>> really
>> unfortunate. The fact that any of us who are coming over from
>> Windows are
>> willing to do this shows that we are open to a different way of doing
>> things, and that's to be commended.
>>
>> Les
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Donna Goodin
>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:27 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm?
>>
>>
>> I completely agree Max. Editing wasn't hard for me to learn, but web
>> browsing and getting used to where certain things are in the system
>> has
>> been
>> more of a challenge. And at least five times a day I still press
>> Enter
>> instead of Command-O to open a file or launch an app. And
>> conversely, it's
>> also gotten to the point where when I'm on my Windows machine, I
>> try and
>> press Command-shift-D to send an email message. I guess that's
>> just the
>> nature of moving back and forth between two systems. I think the
>> more
>> choices we as blind users have, the better, and I'd encourage
>> anyone to
>> just
>> find the one that is the best fit for them.
>> Take care,
>> Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Maxwell Ivey Jr. <maxwelli...@aol.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:44 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm?
>>
>>
>> Hi Donna; It could have just been me, but that is the point.
>> there are
>> people out there who have been doing it one way for so long that any
>> change
>> can be frustrating. I remember how many times i deleted the wrong
>> character
>> or inserted a character in the wrong spot and had to do it over.
>> Now, I'm
>> used to it. And the few times i use the windows computer I have to
>> remember
>> things like pressing the spacebar before entering text in a form
>> field.
>> Mac
>> is the way to go. Just wish we could convince the makers of adobe,
>> flash,
>> eudora, and others that we can't currently use on the mac. Take
>> care, Max
>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:29 PM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Well, I guess we all have our things. Ironically, the adjustment to
>>> editing text has been one of the easier parts of my adjustment to
>>> the
>>> Mac.
>>> *smile*
>>> Take care,
>>> Donna
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Maxwell Ivey
>>>> Jr.
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:16 PM
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks donna; only wish my transition from doss to windows had
>>>> been
>>>> as easy. That was a real mind cramp sort of thing. Take care, Max
>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice post, Max.
>>>>> Donna
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Maxwell
>>>>>> Ivey
>>>>>> Jr.
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:29 PM
>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello; Just speaking for myself the hardest adjustment i had to
>>>> make
>>>>>> when moving to a mac was getting used to the way you have to edit
>>>>>> text. Now, that I understand it, it is second nature; but it
>>>>>> was a
>>>>>> real headache in the beginning. Another one that was a tough one
>>>>>> to get my mind around was not having multiple windows in my
>>>>>> browser. I finallly found out that you can have multiple finder
>>>>>> and safari windows you just cycle through them differently. It
>>>>>> sounds like apple was doing its best to listen and adapt to what
>>>>>> people were saying were short comings in voiceover. To me this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a good thing. Maybe they didn't get this one issue right, but I
>>>>>> believe they continually make an honest effort to give us the
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> accessible easiest to use product out there. I'm still
>>>>>> planning to
>>>>>> wait on snow lepard. You know
>>>> why?
>>>>>> Its because of all the times I upgraded in windows and found
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> were worse instead of better. Its for all the times I kept using
>>>> the
>>>>>> previous version of software out of fear that the next one
>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>> work with jaws. So, thanks to apple for voiceover and their
>>>>>> continuing commitment to universal access. You all take care,
>>>>>> Max
>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Marie Howarth wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to
>>>>>>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the
>>>>>>> way it
>>>>>>> is meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are
>>>>>>> here now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others
>>>>>>> need
>>>> their
>>>>>>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone
>>>>>>> needs. as
>>>> I
>>>>>>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of
>>>>>>>> people who bitched and complained about this whole editing
>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>> and I
>>>> believe
>>>>>>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people
>>>>>>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for
>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this
>>>>>>>> point because I remember clearly the noise about this editing
>>>>>>>> issue. I
>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here,
>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there
>>>> are
>>>>>>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason.
>>>>>>>> It
>>>> is
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not
>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have
>>>> stated
>>>>>>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is
>>>>>>>> not a standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it
>>>>>>>> obviously
>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it
>>>>>>>> is an
>>>>>>>> option.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as
>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their
>>>>>>>>> content,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could
>>>>>>>>> get to
>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing.
>>>>>>>>> Context
>>>>>>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way
>>>>>>>>> shorter learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and
>>>>>>>>> trying to apply things to a ton of situations at once. It's
>>>>>>>>> annoying that
>>>> they're
>>>>>>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going
>>>>>>>>> to thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will
>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled
>>>>>>>>> email from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to
>>>>>>>>> their applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the
>>>>>>>>> difference between what works and what doesn't, it gives them
>>>>>>>>> instructions equally as precise as that email from the VI user
>>>>>>>>> would in most cases.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get
>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason
>>>>>>>>> the option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that
>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>> any
>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping
>>>>>>>>> oppinion like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows,
>>>>>>>>> still use Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I
>>>>>>>>> make my fair share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't
>>>>>>>>> done any in a while.
>>>>>>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating.
>>>>>>>>> I doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease
>>>>>>>>> their progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's
>>>>>>>>> suggested, human's just don't work that way, for the most part
>>>>>>>>> we're creatures of
>>>>>> habit
>>>>>>>>> even if they're bad ones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a
>>>>>>>>> feature be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any
>>>>>>>>> case,
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I
>>>>>>>>> disagree with the feature and what's potentially at stake here
>>>>>>>>> to a sighted mac user, and she point blank didn't get it. I'm
>>>>>>>>> not sure that anyone who hasn't had to appreciate how cool
>>>>>>>>> mainstream technology that
>>>> works
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they
>>>>>>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best
>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this
>>>>>>>>> side
>>>>>>>>> of the pond...
>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <s.how...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the
>>>>>>>>>> only plus side is that for those who want to make the
>>>>>>>>>> transition and
>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to
>>>>>>>>>> ease their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I
>>>>>>>>>> agree
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> you,
>>>>>>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help
>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>> make the transition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly
>>>>>>>>>>> remind me of windows are as follows.
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area,
>>>>>>>>>>> especially when it already says edit text.
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter
>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive and doesn't teach the vi community how it would
>>>>>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>>>>>> to sighties.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional.
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help
>>>>>> progression
>>>>>>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am
>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> glad I did. mac is not windows, when will people realise
>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am
>>>>>>>>>>> grateful
>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> apple
>>>>>>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date:
>>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 4381 (20090830) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
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>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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>>>
>
>
> >
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