Just wondering, you said the mac doesn't get spam? I am a new mac user, but i beg to differ with you on this one.lol Spam can find its way in to any mail program.lol
On Aug 30, 2009, at 9:51 AM, John Panarese wrote: > > I will disagree with Anyone who claims that there is no > hostility or arrogance from the Windows community towards the Mac and, > specifically, VoiceOver. Since VoiceOver became available in Tiger, I > have encountered the very behavior and attitudes from Windows users > towards the Mac as I have read some Windows users accuse Mac users of > showing towards Windows. In fact, at NFB shows, this mentality has > probably been the strongest. There is a mindset among hardcore > members of the blindness organization of "circling the wagons" or > "protecting ones own", and I think anyone who tries to claim otherwise > is not living on this planet. Sadly, I think Snow Leopard is only > going to create more shrill and vitriolic responses in regard to > Apple's efforts, and never any slightest acknowledgement of the "good" > it is doing for the blind. > > Now, the one thing that is apparently overlooked is that many of > us on this list and others who have been using the Mac are either > former Windows users or, like myself, still use Windows. I will admit > without hesitation that I take shots at Windows and openly criticize > Microsoft, but having used Windows for some 13 years, I surely feel > that I am qualified to do so and can speak about the shortcomings of > Windows quite knowledgeably. This is not arrogance or anything else > on my part. This is simply experience and the difference I have found > in using the Mac. Yes, the "dark side" might be too strong of a term, > yet, at the same time, it is like night and day. No viruses, spam, > crashes and other Windows instability issues Windows users just seem > to tolerate and accept as being "normal". If anything, Vista > completely turned me off from windows forever, and I am not impressed > by Windows 7 at all at this point. > > With that all said, however, again, it must also be noted that > companies like, GW Micro, Serotek and Freedom Scientific have done a > considerable amount of good for the blind. Windows screen reader > developers often receive a great deal of criticism and grumbling from > their own user base. I know that accessibility and Microsoft are > often quite challenging from what I have been privately told by both > GW Micro and FS people. Thus, I would never be one to take anything > away from Windows access efforts, as that was my introduction to > computers and it carried me through may years. Many folks, either by > circumstance or choice, still use Windows, and that will probably not > change, other than, perhaps, the choice part of the equation. > > In regard to the three features that are the topic of this > thread, I don't personally find a need to go back to the old Windows > way of editing. It was difficult to become adjusted to the Mac way at > the start, but it makes far more sense to me than the Windows way. I > don't need a webpage read to me in its entirety at any time, but I > really think the summarization of the elements on a site is > particularly useful. However, the one thing that us longer time Mac > users and even many newer ones understand, the beauty of the Mac > experience is that we are given more than one way to accomplish a > task. If these additions to Snow Leopard assist and ease the > transition for a Windows user to the Mac, overall, I think that it is > a good thing. Customization has increased quite a bit in Snow > Leopard, so whatever is comfortable to you is obviously what you use. > This also goes, btw, for your choice of access tools as well, whether > it be the Mac, Windows or Linux. It is just a matter of myself having > chosen the Mac way as being superior in more than enough ways to make > it my tool of choice. > > > Take Care > > John Panarese > > On Aug 30, 2009, at 8:21 AM, James & Nash wrote: > >> >> No you are right, NFB and other blindnes organizations who >> supposedly hvae >> our best interests at heart are very narrow minded when it coems to >> technological matters as well as others. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Les Kriegler" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:09 PM >> Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm? >> >> >>> >>> Hi Donna and All, >>> >>> I'll offer my opinion as a current Windows user. As I enter >>> MacLand, one >>> of >>> the most valuable benefits of this list has been what those of you >>> who are >>> current Mac users offer, and that's perspective. I have a pretty >>> good >>> idea >>> of the chalenges that await. For my part, I will try and learn the >>> editing >>> ways of Apple. If I can get used to it, I'll be better off in the >>> long >>> run. >>> If it becomes too frustrating, I'll use the Windows editing >>> feature. I >>> suspect the first will apply based on what a number of you have >>> said. I'm >>> certain as a new Mac user, I'll do exactly what Donna has described, >>> especially since I'll be back and forth between Windows and Apple. >>> That's >>> okay, because it's unavoidable. I do like having choices, as I >>> suspect >>> most >>> who have used both operating systems do. Finally, just for the >>> record, I >>> think a couple of you came down too hard on Marie. I didn't take >>> any >>> offense to her comments. It sounded like she responded to the >>> perceived >>> pressure that NFB placed on Apple to implement this change. NFB >>> hasn't >>> exactly been at all complimentary of Apple's efforts, and that's >>> really >>> unfortunate. The fact that any of us who are coming over from >>> Windows are >>> willing to do this shows that we are open to a different way of >>> doing >>> things, and that's to be commended. >>> >>> Les >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donna Goodin >>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:27 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm? >>> >>> >>> I completely agree Max. Editing wasn't hard for me to learn, but >>> web >>> browsing and getting used to where certain things are in the system >>> has >>> been >>> more of a challenge. And at least five times a day I still press >>> Enter >>> instead of Command-O to open a file or launch an app. And >>> conversely, it's >>> also gotten to the point where when I'm on my Windows machine, I >>> try and >>> press Command-shift-D to send an email message. I guess that's >>> just the >>> nature of moving back and forth between two systems. I think the >>> more >>> choices we as blind users have, the better, and I'd encourage >>> anyone to >>> just >>> find the one that is the best fit for them. >>> Take care, >>> Donna >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Maxwell Ivey Jr. <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:44 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>> >>> >>> Hi Donna; It could have just been me, but that is the point. >>> there are >>> people out there who have been doing it one way for so long that any >>> change >>> can be frustrating. I remember how many times i deleted the wrong >>> character >>> or inserted a character in the wrong spot and had to do it over. >>> Now, I'm >>> used to it. And the few times i use the windows computer I have to >>> remember >>> things like pressing the spacebar before entering text in a form >>> field. >>> Mac >>> is the way to go. Just wish we could convince the makers of adobe, >>> flash, >>> eudora, and others that we can't currently use on the mac. Take >>> care, Max >>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:29 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Well, I guess we all have our things. Ironically, the adjustment >>>> to >>>> editing text has been one of the easier parts of my adjustment to >>>> the >>>> Mac. >>>> *smile* >>>> Take care, >>>> Donna >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell Ivey >>>>> Jr. >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:16 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks donna; only wish my transition from doss to windows had >>>>> been >>>>> as easy. That was a real mind cramp sort of thing. Take care, >>>>> Max >>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Nice post, Max. >>>>>> Donna >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell >>>>>>> Ivey >>>>>>> Jr. >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:29 PM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello; Just speaking for myself the hardest adjustment i had to >>>>> make >>>>>>> when moving to a mac was getting used to the way you have to >>>>>>> edit >>>>>>> text. Now, that I understand it, it is second nature; but it >>>>>>> was a >>>>>>> real headache in the beginning. Another one that was a tough >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> to get my mind around was not having multiple windows in my >>>>>>> browser. I finallly found out that you can have multiple finder >>>>>>> and safari windows you just cycle through them differently. It >>>>>>> sounds like apple was doing its best to listen and adapt to what >>>>>>> people were saying were short comings in voiceover. To me this >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> a good thing. Maybe they didn't get this one issue right, but I >>>>>>> believe they continually make an honest effort to give us the >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> accessible easiest to use product out there. I'm still >>>>>>> planning to >>>>>>> wait on snow lepard. You know >>>>> why? >>>>>>> Its because of all the times I upgraded in windows and found >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> were worse instead of better. Its for all the times I kept >>>>>>> using >>>>> the >>>>>>> previous version of software out of fear that the next one >>>>>>> wouldn't >>>>>>> work with jaws. So, thanks to apple for voiceover and their >>>>>>> continuing commitment to universal access. You all take care, >>>>>>> Max >>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to >>>>>>>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the >>>>>>>> way it >>>>>>>> is meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> here now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others >>>>>>>> need >>>>> their >>>>>>>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone >>>>>>>> needs. as >>>>> I >>>>>>>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of >>>>>>>>> people who bitched and complained about this whole editing >>>>>>>>> issue >>>>>>>>> and I >>>>> believe >>>>>>>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this >>>>>>>>> point because I remember clearly the noise about this editing >>>>>>>>> issue. I >>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, >>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because >>>>>>>>> there >>>>> are >>>>>>>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. >>>>>>>>> It >>>>> is >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not >>>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have >>>>> stated >>>>>>>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is >>>>>>>>> not a standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it >>>>>>>>> obviously >>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it >>>>>>>>> is an >>>>>>>>> option. >>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their >>>>>>>>>> content, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could >>>>>>>>>> get to >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. >>>>>>>>>> Context >>>>>>>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way >>>>>>>>>> shorter learning curve usually than reading a whole manual >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> trying to apply things to a ton of situations at once. It's >>>>>>>>>> annoying that >>>>> they're >>>>>>>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are >>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>> to thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will >>>>>>>>>> developers >>>>> who >>>>>>>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled >>>>>>>>>> email from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to >>>>>>>>>> their applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the >>>>>>>>>> difference between what works and what doesn't, it gives them >>>>>>>>>> instructions equally as precise as that email from the VI >>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>> would in most cases. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason >>>>>>>>>> the option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that >>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>> any >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping >>>>>>>>>> oppinion like that, I should say that I was raised on >>>>>>>>>> Windows, >>>>>>>>>> still use Windows more often than many on here I expect, >>>>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>>>> make my fair share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't >>>>>>>>>> done any in a while. >>>>>>>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as >>>>>>>>>> cheating. >>>>>>>>>> I doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease >>>>>>>>>> their progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's >>>>>>>>>> suggested, human's just don't work that way, for the most >>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>> we're creatures of >>>>>>> habit >>>>>>>>>> even if they're bad ones. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a >>>>>>>>>> feature be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any >>>>>>>>>> case, >>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I >>>>>>>>>> disagree with the feature and what's potentially at stake >>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>> to a sighted mac user, and she point blank didn't get it. >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> not sure that anyone who hasn't had to appreciate how cool >>>>>>>>>> mainstream technology that >>>>> works >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best >>>>>>>>>> thing >>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this >>>>>>>>>> side >>>>>>>>>> of the pond... >>>>>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the >>>>>>>>>>> only plus side is that for those who want to make the >>>>>>>>>>> transition and >>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> ease their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I >>>>>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> you, >>>>>>>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help >>>>>>>>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>>> make the transition. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that >>>>>>>>>>>> horribly >>>>>>>>>>>> remind me of windows are as follows. >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially when it already says edit text. >>>>>>>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter >>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive and doesn't teach the vi community how it would >>>>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>>>> to sighties. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help >>>>>>> progression >>>>>>>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am >>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>> glad I did. mac is not windows, when will people realise >>>>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am >>>>>>>>>>>> grateful >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release >>>>>>> Date: >>>>>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >>>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 4381 (20090830) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 4381 (20090830) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 4381 (20090830) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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