> On Mar 7, 2018, at 11:25 AM, David Carriger <david.carri...@infusionsoft.com> 
> wrote:
> I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've seen cases where a legitimate 
> domain name will expire and be converted to a spam trap within a week. Then 
> the original domain owner will renew it before it goes back to the registry, 
> and it will point back to its pre-expiry MX records.
> In the worst examples I've seen, the domain went from a legitimate mail 
> server to a trap network in the same day, with no time for bounces in between.
> List cleaning can certainly be used by unscrupulous marketers, and I'm 
> opposed to that use of it. On the other hand, what should we tell a good 
> marketer who is sending to confirmed, engaged addresses that have converted 
> into traps overnight?

Step 1: Is their mail bouncing / being marked as spam? No? Stop here.

Step 2: Is their mail bouncing / being marked as spam *because* you hit those 
spamtraps? (It's common that people who hit spamtraps also have their mail 
rejected, but that's correlation not causation) No? Stop here.

Step 3: Contact the reputation provider, ask politely "WTF, dudes and 
dudettes?". It may be a cock-up; it usually is. If they acknowledge the issue, 
stop here.

Step 4: Those aren't legitimate spam traps, the company operating them has 
terrible data quality and they're probably not being widely used. Check *again* 
whether the mail is bouncing because of this reputation data.

Step 5: Reach out to ISPs using the data and encourage them not to do so, or to 
push back on the reputation provider to fix their processes.

Step 6: Public name + shame.

There are cases where unscrupulous spamtrap operators do Bad Things, but they 
usually get found out and called out on their behaviour. And it's really rather 
rare that it happens with reputation providers who are widely relevant to 
delivery decisions.


> From: mailop <mailop-boun...@mailop.org> on behalf of Brett Schenker 
> <bhschen...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 11:41:55 AM
> To: Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Hat color of list washers / validators
> I work in the nonprofit/political space and while I can see uses to make sure 
> offline email list building (think people on a corner asking you to sign 
> up/sign a petition) has had the addresses typed in correctly, list 
> washing/validating is unfortunately being used by more orgs and campaigns as 
> a way to scrub their list instead of spending time and looking at engagement 
> instead. They think it'll get rid of spam traps and they can keep sending to 
> the unengaged portion of their list.
> The habit seems to be driven by consultants in the space but I also know 
> there's a lot of these services that have approached me offering kickbacks, I 
> mean affiliate status so that we can profit off of the use.
> It's a hard uphill battle against this.
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Steve Atkins <st...@blighty.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Also, if I'm not mistaking, list-validation services are mainly targeting
> >> online businesses, so even if the there might be legit cases, I doubt the
> >> biggest part of their revenues is.
> >
> > I'm not really familiar with their revenue model but I do know that for
> > some of them, spammers and rogue marketers absolutely do not make up the
> > majority of their client base, if at all.
> They don't describe themselves that way, for sure. But the business model
> is to take lists of email addresses of variable quality, then to wash those 
> lists
> through a validation service, then send to them through an ESP.
> The only value of the validation service here is to hide the quality and
> provenance of the list from the ESP. It doesn't change anything else.
> That's typically behaviour from a marketer who doesn't think the ESP
> would continue to work with them if they saw the quality of their lists.
> Cheers,
>   Steve
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> Brett Schenker
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