Thanks for looking into it for us Chris (and thanks for asking Chris about it Vinod :-). On Jun 20, 2013 7:16 AM, "Mattmann, Chris A (398J)" < [email protected]> wrote:
> Hey Vinod, > > It's not possible at the moment mainly b/c the Confluence wiki is > being upgraded over the next week, etc. But, I talked to Gav in > infra@ and he says contact them after that. > > Cheers, > Chris > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > Senior Computer Scientist > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > Email: [email protected] > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected] > > > Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:27 AM > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > > >Yup. I'm able to add pages now. Thanks Chris! > > > >Is it possible to let all the mesos committers to have mesos wiki edit > >access by default? Looks like whatever group is being used for mesos wiki > >access is not in sync with the committers of mesos. > > > > > >On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Hey Vinod, > >> > >> I went ahead and added perms individually for you on the wiki. > >> Let me know if that worked. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Chris > >> > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >> Senior Computer Scientist > >> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >> Email: [email protected] > >> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: <Mattmann>, jpluser <[email protected]> > >> Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >><[email protected] > >> > > >> Date: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:37 PM > >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >> > >> >Hey Vinod, > >> > > >> >I can assign individual permission to you I think, but I can't modify > >> >the mesos-committers group. > >> > > >> >I'll raise an issue with infra@ and see if they can give me the > ability > >> >to modify the mesos-committers group (wiki admin perms). I have space > >> >admin perms atm. > >> > > >> >Cheers, > >> >Chris > >> > > >> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >> >Senior Computer Scientist > >> >NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >> >Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >> >Email: [email protected] > >> >WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >> >University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > >> >Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >> ><[email protected]> > >> >Date: Sunday, June 16, 2013 9:13 PM > >> >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >> >Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >> > > >> >>Btw Chris, do you have the ability to grant me edit access for the > >>mesos > >> >>wiki page? I would like to use it to capture some stuff (e.g., new > >> >>feature > >> >>design)? If you don't I can create an INFRA ticket? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >> >>[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Heya Vinod, > >> >>> > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> > >> >>> From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > >> >>> Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >> >>><[email protected] > >> >>> > > >> >>> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 3:12 PM > >> >>> To: "[email protected]" > >><[email protected]> > >> >>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >> >>> > >> >>> >Thanks Chris for your POV. I think we all agree that Wiki is more > >>user > >> >>> >friendly than git. But my (and likely others) concerns are > >> >>> > > >> >>> >1) If docs are editable on both wiki and git, then which one is the > >> >>> >authoritative source? If one of them goes stale, which one should > >>the > >> >>> >user/contributor refer to? > >> >>> > >> >>> Great question -- why does one have to be the authoritative source > >>over > >> >>> the other? It's quite possible that they won't have overlapping > >> >>>content. > >> >>> And if they do, it really only costs us an email to a (potentially > >> >>> confused) > >> >>> user pointing them at the right source. This requires us to be > >>active > >> >>>on > >> >>> the dev lists and responsive and looking to help -- Mesos right now > >> >>> definitely > >> >>> fits that bill. I'm sure you or Ben H or Ben M or Andy or anyone > >>else > >> >>> (even me!) :) > >> >>> may be able to point peeps in the right direction on that. > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> >2) How to keep the docs in sync? If some one edits the docs in the > >> >>>wiki, > >> >>> >how do we get it into our git repo? This involves PMC/Committer to > >> >>> >shepherd > >> >>> >no? Then why not involve pmc/committer early and circumvent the > >>wiki > >> >>>edit? > >> >>> > >> >>> Who sez they have to be in sync? Like I said they could be > >>overlapping > >> >>> content, > >> >>> or not. If they are overlapping then one can grow stale but I would > >> >>> estimate the > >> >>> cost function for that to be minimal. And it may be driven by our > >>own > >> >>> interest > >> >>> to fix this or we may have some superstar user that fixes it for us > >> >>>that we > >> >>> then nominate for PMC and then sign them up for this fantastic task > >> >>>(heh). > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> >3) How easy is it to associate documentation to releases in Wiki? > >>Its > >> >>> >straightforward when we work in the repo. > >> >>> > >> >>> +1 release docs shipping with releases makes perfect sense to me. No > >> >>>reason > >> >>> though that there can't be complementary (even overlapping) docs on > >>the > >> >>> wiki. > >> >>> No biggie. > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> >Maybe, one way we could let users use wiki to contribute is, if > >>there > >> >>>is > >> >>> >tooling available that can generate a ReviewBoard patch when > >>someone > >> >>>edits > >> >>> >a wiki, ala github pull request to RB patch? > >> >>> > >> >>> Haha, yikes that sounds like work for you guys (PMC) that you don't > >> >>>need > >> >>> to do. > >> >>> Let users and contributors edit the wiki to the hearts content and > >> >>>improve > >> >>> Apache > >> >>> Mesos doc. The policies/procedures for what's canonical/etc. in > >>those > >> >>>docs > >> >>> can be > >> >>> less formal and more based on social norms; users' actual comments; > >>and > >> >>> improvements > >> >>> that make sense to expend resources working on. > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> >P.S: Open office's how to contribute to > >> >>> >wiki< > >> >>> > >>http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Wiki_Editing_ > >> >>> >Policy> > >> >>> >looks > >> >>> >pretty ominous to me :) > >> >>> > >> >>> Hehe, same to me! /me ducks from the Apache Ooo PMC members sneaking > >> >>> around on this list lol > >> >>> > >> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >> >>> Senior Computer Scientist > >> >>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >> >>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >> >>> Email: [email protected] > >> >>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >> >>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >> >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> >On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >> >>> >[email protected]> wrote: > >> >>> > > >> >>> >> Hi Dave, > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> From: Dave Lester <[email protected]> > >> >>> >> Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >> >>> >><[email protected] > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 11:26 AM > >> >>> >> To: "[email protected]" > >> >>><[email protected]> > >> >>> >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> >On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >> >>> >> >[email protected]> wrote: > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> >> I would just do both. Let contributions and time > >> >>> >> >> decide; rather than just picking one. > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> >I disagree. In this case I see two distinct concerns related to > >> >>> >> >documentation and the wiki: 1) making it clear and simple for > >>how > >> >>>to > >> >>> >> >contribute to the project documentation, and 2) making it easy > >>to > >> >>>use > >> >>> >>the > >> >>> >> >documentation and get started with Mesos. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> And: > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> 3) Enabling contribution to documentation (which is different > >>from > >> >>>#1 > >> >>> >> [making > >> >>> >> it clear] and from #2 [using the documentation]) > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> >I personally think the latter concern much more pressing for > >>user > >> >>> >>growth > >> >>> >> >at > >> >>> >> >this time, although I do think both are important to consider. > >>Do > >> >>> >>others > >> >>> >> >think the former is more important? > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> I'm of the mindset having been around the foundation since 2005-, > >> >>>and a > >> >>> >> number > >> >>> >> of projects that each (shipping docs with release; and keeping > >>docs > >> >>>in > >> >>> >> wiki) has > >> >>> >> their benefits and use cases. The latter allows documentation to > >> >>>evolve > >> >>> >> much more > >> >>> >> rapidly and also visually (e.g., through editors like > >>Confluence); > >> >>> >>whereas > >> >>> >> the > >> >>> >> former requires someone with commit/PMC bit to shepherd the > >> >>> >>documentation > >> >>> >> into > >> >>> >> the sources [giving them the potential for them to be quite > >>stale as > >> >>> >>those > >> >>> >> sources > >> >>> >> become stale]. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> However the above is a straw man.I see advantages to both and > >>have > >> >>>lived > >> >>> >> them > >> >>> >> through in a number of high and low profile open source projects. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > As a developer who is getting starting with Mesos, having > >>multiple > >> >>> >> >sources > >> >>> >> >of truth for the project (documentation stored in git, and also > >>the > >> >>> >>wiki) > >> >>> >> >could be frustrating. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Note the key word above *could*. We don't have people constantly > >> >>>coming > >> >>> >>to > >> >>> >> the mailing lists complaining about this delineation. And if they > >> >>>did, I > >> >>> >> would > >> >>> >> suggest to them the same (and it really depends on what their > >>role > >> >>>is in > >> >>> >> the > >> >>> >> project -- are they PMC/committer yet? are they simply a user?, > >> >>>etc.) > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Take for example Apache Open Office -- a very formal PMC > >> >>>organization > >> >>> >> rightly so > >> >>> >> due to the diversity of types and kinds of contributions -- and > >>due > >> >>>to > >> >>> >>the > >> >>> >> fact that their community wants the model that way. Imagine the > >> >>> >>rate/types > >> >>> >> of > >> >>> >> documentation contribution and from all over the world with > >> >>> >> internationalization > >> >>> >> etc that they receive. Keeping docs in sources would be quite > >> >>>difficult > >> >>> >>if > >> >>> >> updating those docs required the contributors to be PMC or > >>committer > >> >>>- > >> >>> >> especially > >> >>> >> in the case that they receive non technical documentation and > >> >>> >> contributions from > >> >>> >> people that will never touch SVN or Git, like ever. But they > >>write > >> >>> >> documentation in > >> >>> >> e.g., some editor or wiki, and then contribute it separate of the > >> >>> >>release > >> >>> >> cycle of > >> >>> >> the system. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> On the opposite extreme end, in a project with very small > >>sources; > >> >>>high > >> >>> >> rate of > >> >>> >> commit; tons of inclusivity; I can see saying look we want docs > >>only > >> >>>in > >> >>> >> sources, > >> >>> >> we don't need a wiki being a decent choice. Until the first user > >> >>>that > >> >>> >> cares nothing > >> >>> >> about the sources, but only the binary, and that writes a great > >> >>>tutorial > >> >>> >> on the > >> >>> >> software and wants to share it comes along. Then what's the use > >> >>>case? > >> >>> >>That > >> >>> >> tutorial > >> >>> >> has to be shepherded or brought into the sources by a committer > >>or > >> >>>PMC > >> >>> >> member, creating > >> >>> >> more work. When instead, that user could have gone to a wiki, > >>turned > >> >>>the > >> >>> >> editor on, > >> >>> >> dumped their doc into it, clicked save, and been done. It's in > >>our > >> >>> >> advantage to have > >> >>> >> the docs here on ASF hardware and the bits here, in whatever form > >> >>>they > >> >>> >> manifest (wiki; > >> >>> >> *.md files in Git, etc.) > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Mesos isn't on either end of these opposites, and is more > >>in-between > >> >>> >>like > >> >>> >> most > >> >>> >> projects are. For that reason along with numerous others I've > >> >>>suggested, > >> >>> >> it probably > >> >>> >> makes sense to support both. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Beyond this, it's also not a question of "shutting down" > >> >>>documentation > >> >>> >>on > >> >>> >> the wiki. > >> >>> >> That's not something really that should be dictated, nor is it > >>very > >> >>> >> community friendly. > >> >>> >> I'm involved with the project, if for nothing else than teaching > >>the > >> >>> >> Apache way, vote'ing > >> >>> >> on releases and mentoring. I enjoy the wiki, a lot more than I do > >> >>> >>checking > >> >>> >> out a source > >> >>> >> tree, running a few git commands and then update/pushing it and > >> >>>waiting > >> >>> >> for it to appear > >> >>> >> on some site. For that reason that there is at least 1 person on > >>the > >> >>> >> project that likes > >> >>> >> a wiki, I'd ask, VOTE'ing to declare one versus the other > >>defunct or > >> >>>not > >> >>> >> isn't very > >> >>> >> friendly to me or anyone else that likes the wiki. I'd ask: what > >> >>>happens > >> >>> >> if everyone > >> >>> >> +1s the Git docs, and -1s me? What should I do then? Stop putting > >> >>>stuff > >> >>> >>on > >> >>> >> the wiki? > >> >>> >> What if it discourages me from contributing docs? Is that good > >>for > >> >>> >>Mesos? > >> >>> >> Or the community? > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> >There's no search between the docs and wiki, and I'm > >> >>> >> >not clear if there is a distinction between where I would go to > >> >>>answer > >> >>> >> >specific questions. When contributing documentation, I'm also > >>not > >> >>>sure > >> >>> >> >which source I would contribute to. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Hypothetical, let's support this with real use cases and data and > >> >>> >>address > >> >>> >> this issue should it arise when we have dozens of people beating > >>our > >> >>> >>door > >> >>> >> down for searching across the wiki and docs -- furthermore, I'd > >> >>>actually > >> >>> >> suggest that in fact you can search across both, with Google. > >>Google > >> >>> >> indexes > >> >>> >> Apache's Confluence deployment; as do they index our Git and SVN > >> >>>repos > >> >>> >>and > >> >>> >> the content inside. So, you can actually search across both. B/c > >> >>>Google > >> >>> >>is > >> >>> >> a > >> >>> >> horizontal search engine and not vertical, it's harder, but it > >>can > >> >>>be > >> >>> >>done. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> >I'm in favor of using just one source. If making it easy to use > >>the > >> >>> >> >documentation is the priority then I think rendering markdown > >>files > >> >>>is > >> >>> >>a > >> >>> >> >fine approach for now. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> My honest suggestion: put your time and effort into improving > >>what > >> >>>you'd > >> >>> >> like > >> >>> >> (the source docs), and let me and anyone else that wants to put > >> >>>stuff on > >> >>> >> the > >> >>> >> wiki do our thing too. Then, beyond that, let's add a link on > >>both: > >> >>>(1) > >> >>> >> from > >> >>> >> the wiki to git: Apache src docs; and from src docs to the wiki. > >> >>>Done. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> Cheers, > >> >>> >> Chris > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >>> >> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >> >>> >> Senior Computer Scientist > >> >>> >> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >> >>> >> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >> >>> >> Email: [email protected] > >> >>> >> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >> >>> >> > >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >>> >> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >> >>> >> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >> >>> >> > >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > > >> > >> > >
